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by Abby Normal on 25 February 2011 - 15:02
Sue
I tried to ensure that my 'observations' were not seen as criticisms. I applaud and see all the positives in the breed surveys, and of course mandatory health testing. I really DO see them, and I totally support it.
Sometimes someone makes a 'headline' statement such as Videx, that no w/t should be considered until such and such. My response was to understand why he had that opinion. He has answered that, and I understand it. I WANT to see the GSD movement in the UK take the breed forward in all aspects, that's all. I totally agree that not everyone wants to partake in ScH etc, and with total control over the classes at the regional events, there is no reason not to offer something to everyone. I think the question that truly remains to be answered is, do we, in the UK actually want working tests included? If not then we are in danger of breeding away from a crucial aspect of the GSD, the ability to work.
Has the question arisen? What was the consenus? The fragmentation and politics between the different factions is certainly a major stumbling block, and someone clearly needs to lead the way.
I know from experience that aims and objectives can end up remaining just that, and unless it's very clear where you want to be in 2, 5 and 10 years time (not you personally, but the overall 'movement') those aims and objectives can remain just that.
I tried to ensure that my 'observations' were not seen as criticisms. I applaud and see all the positives in the breed surveys, and of course mandatory health testing. I really DO see them, and I totally support it.
Sometimes someone makes a 'headline' statement such as Videx, that no w/t should be considered until such and such. My response was to understand why he had that opinion. He has answered that, and I understand it. I WANT to see the GSD movement in the UK take the breed forward in all aspects, that's all. I totally agree that not everyone wants to partake in ScH etc, and with total control over the classes at the regional events, there is no reason not to offer something to everyone. I think the question that truly remains to be answered is, do we, in the UK actually want working tests included? If not then we are in danger of breeding away from a crucial aspect of the GSD, the ability to work.
Has the question arisen? What was the consenus? The fragmentation and politics between the different factions is certainly a major stumbling block, and someone clearly needs to lead the way.
I know from experience that aims and objectives can end up remaining just that, and unless it's very clear where you want to be in 2, 5 and 10 years time (not you personally, but the overall 'movement') those aims and objectives can remain just that.
by Abby Normal on 25 February 2011 - 15:02
/cont
Shonnag makes a very, very good point. If information isn't out there, and isn't publicised, how can the movement grow, other than within a relatively small band of enthusiasts.
You said
Try to start a new venture using the Ultimate as you have suggested and you create a negative response, embracing very few.
I don't really understand what you've said here. There is no need for a new movement, and including working tests as a future goal (if it were decided that is the direction in which the breed in the UK should go), isn't likely to be detrimental. Indeed, as Shonnag says how many actually are aware of the aims and objectives of the group? Alternatively, it may have a positive effect and encourage people to think more about working ability. I can't get a handle on whether any of the organisations, BC, GSDL, Regional group, consider working ability to be of importance.
If it isn't stated as a future goal it doesn't give anyone the opportunity to 'see it coming' and prepare for it, if they wish to. Personally I think that working ability should be a factor in breeding, and ultimately all breeding stock should have those qualities. Dogs that are 'titled' now have not necessarily achieved that with their owner, but with a third party. We could go that route in the UK. Just a thought.
Shonnag makes a very, very good point. If information isn't out there, and isn't publicised, how can the movement grow, other than within a relatively small band of enthusiasts.
You said
Try to start a new venture using the Ultimate as you have suggested and you create a negative response, embracing very few.
I don't really understand what you've said here. There is no need for a new movement, and including working tests as a future goal (if it were decided that is the direction in which the breed in the UK should go), isn't likely to be detrimental. Indeed, as Shonnag says how many actually are aware of the aims and objectives of the group? Alternatively, it may have a positive effect and encourage people to think more about working ability. I can't get a handle on whether any of the organisations, BC, GSDL, Regional group, consider working ability to be of importance.
If it isn't stated as a future goal it doesn't give anyone the opportunity to 'see it coming' and prepare for it, if they wish to. Personally I think that working ability should be a factor in breeding, and ultimately all breeding stock should have those qualities. Dogs that are 'titled' now have not necessarily achieved that with their owner, but with a third party. We could go that route in the UK. Just a thought.
by Aileen Ann Mathieson on 26 February 2011 - 23:02
After reading all of the above I would like to point out that NOT EVERYONE IN THE UK is able to access Training for BH or indeed Schutzhund, well certainly not in Scotland. Most of the Clubs in Scotland are very small and can only train a small number of dogs at any given time, so there are not the facilities up here for everyone who wants to train their GSDs in Schutzhund or even say just a BH or AD. So what can one do in this case.
Some of us are getting a bit too old for Schutzhund Training and the intense dedication it takes and some of us feel it is not something our dogs require in everyday life. To me personally it is a sport that some want and enjoy but it is not a daily requirement for many dogs.
Apart from the politics of what should and should not be added to the Breed Survey it just so happens we have a male GSD, Videx Castro at Allsala (and I would hope that David is proud of the dog he bred and who has passed his Breed Survey Class I and is KCGC Bronze and soon to be Silver).
Cody has his Breed Survey Class I and he is also attending Classes every week doing his Good Cit - he sits his Silver Test this week. Personally, we are not interested in who runs this, Jim enjoys doing this with him. He is a CREDIT to the GSD as he went to Classes at 1 year old and is the most obedient and amiable dog in the Class. I think it is rewarding to see him doing all the tests included in this discipline - Recall/Retrieve and all the Stays in all positions for prolonged periods with handler not in attendance etc and all the other interactions with other breeds without trying to eat them or cause mayhem - he is not only a Show Dog he is an Obedience Dog (not in Competition Terms) but in liveable terms. If he needed higher tests to get into the Regionals then that would not be possible at this time as they are not available to us at the present time.
He is the first GSD I have been able to take for a walk in public without being pulled off my feet and I am proud to walk him anywhere, all the others were mad as hatters - all they knew was to pull and to the public they were mad and out of control.
Jo Public is not interested in the dog who can take the sleeve, they want a calm, loyal and obedient pet and where do the majority of puppies end up - as pets.
We would love to do the BH and AD with this dog too, however at the moment there are no spaces in the Clubs, but with the Regional Group formation in Scotland this may not be long in being on offer to the members of the Group and any other interested parties.
Changes take time and that is the one thing I agree with in all of this - change must be gradual and open to all abilities of owners - a lot of us are not as young as we were and find some of the working stuff just out of the question or out of reach.
I would prefer a Good Cit type of test to be set up under the GSD League - there is no reason this cannot be done and there could surely be a starting point and then a build up to a higher award as the years pass - but going to fast too soon will be the downfall of the new systems if consideration is not given to the capabilities of both owners/handlers and the dogs themselves.
At the present time in my area of Scotland this is the only training available and open to us.
Aileen
Some of us are getting a bit too old for Schutzhund Training and the intense dedication it takes and some of us feel it is not something our dogs require in everyday life. To me personally it is a sport that some want and enjoy but it is not a daily requirement for many dogs.
Apart from the politics of what should and should not be added to the Breed Survey it just so happens we have a male GSD, Videx Castro at Allsala (and I would hope that David is proud of the dog he bred and who has passed his Breed Survey Class I and is KCGC Bronze and soon to be Silver).
Cody has his Breed Survey Class I and he is also attending Classes every week doing his Good Cit - he sits his Silver Test this week. Personally, we are not interested in who runs this, Jim enjoys doing this with him. He is a CREDIT to the GSD as he went to Classes at 1 year old and is the most obedient and amiable dog in the Class. I think it is rewarding to see him doing all the tests included in this discipline - Recall/Retrieve and all the Stays in all positions for prolonged periods with handler not in attendance etc and all the other interactions with other breeds without trying to eat them or cause mayhem - he is not only a Show Dog he is an Obedience Dog (not in Competition Terms) but in liveable terms. If he needed higher tests to get into the Regionals then that would not be possible at this time as they are not available to us at the present time.
He is the first GSD I have been able to take for a walk in public without being pulled off my feet and I am proud to walk him anywhere, all the others were mad as hatters - all they knew was to pull and to the public they were mad and out of control.
Jo Public is not interested in the dog who can take the sleeve, they want a calm, loyal and obedient pet and where do the majority of puppies end up - as pets.
We would love to do the BH and AD with this dog too, however at the moment there are no spaces in the Clubs, but with the Regional Group formation in Scotland this may not be long in being on offer to the members of the Group and any other interested parties.
Changes take time and that is the one thing I agree with in all of this - change must be gradual and open to all abilities of owners - a lot of us are not as young as we were and find some of the working stuff just out of the question or out of reach.
I would prefer a Good Cit type of test to be set up under the GSD League - there is no reason this cannot be done and there could surely be a starting point and then a build up to a higher award as the years pass - but going to fast too soon will be the downfall of the new systems if consideration is not given to the capabilities of both owners/handlers and the dogs themselves.
At the present time in my area of Scotland this is the only training available and open to us.
Aileen
by Videx on 27 February 2011 - 01:02
Aileen, you can be absolutely certain that Rhoda and I are VERY proud of Castro and we are also delighted he is with your family. You are without doubt the ideal GSD owners.
The GSD League with the GSDL/WUSV Regional Working Group can decide to establish some suitable GSD working tests/qualifications of their own, which could and may lead towards a BH eventually. They could start discussing and deciding on them as soon as possible. The KEY issue for me is that they should NOT include them into the GSD Breed Survey for many years, at least 5 years, and the guiding principles should be the growth of GSD participating on an annual basis in the Breed Survey alongside training facilities being reasonably available to the vast majority.
The following question is asked by Abby Normal.
"I think the question that truly remains to be answered is, do we, in the UK actually want working tests included? If not then we are in danger of breeding away from a crucial aspect of the GSD, the ability to work?"
I sincerely believe there is a large and growing number of GSD owners who want and would enjoy training their GSD towards gaining a Working Test/Qualification. Many of them are frustrated by the acute lack of suitable training facilities and suitable trainers within reasonable traveling distance of their homes. This must be addressed and it definitely will take time, many many years. However this does mean that great care clearly needs to be exercised when considering what kind of working test could be introduced into the Breed Survey and more importantly when.
If it is introduced prematurely it would definitely exclude many people from gaining a Breed Survey with their GSD, this would then exclude their dog from participating in the GSDL/WUSV Regional Events when they reach the age of 2 years and over. Remember it is the Adult Classes which require the Breed Survey.
The whole question of Working Tests being introduced into the Breed Survey has many pitfalls and for that reason it should be approached in the manner I have suggested in my first opening article on this thread.
The second question by Abbey Normal:
"If not then we are in danger of breeding away from a crucial aspect of the GSD, the ability to work?".
My answer: We are using far more German Dogs in the UK, dogs which are FULLY qualified under the SV System, added to that we are importing a growing number of fully qualified German Dogs and German Bitches. Further there are far more British bred GSD being trained and qualified under the SV System, some here and others in Germany. All of this made possible by the Pedigree Passport System.
There are future prospects that the 6 months time limit on attaining a Pet Passport may be reduced. When this happens there is likely to be further growth in the German GSD influence within the UK. Considering all of this, I would categorically state that the potential working ability of our GSD here in the UK has grown considerable in recent years and this is well set to continue.
Planning and patience is required for the future progress of our GSD in the UK, we have a great deal going for us, we should ensure we avoid shooting ourselves in the foot. I am confident that the exclusion of working tests within our GSD Breed Survey for at least 5 years and with the caveats I have made previously, will be very beneficial for our breed, their owners and our GSDL/WUSV Events and for everyone genuinely interested in our breed future.
The GSD League with the GSDL/WUSV Regional Working Group can decide to establish some suitable GSD working tests/qualifications of their own, which could and may lead towards a BH eventually. They could start discussing and deciding on them as soon as possible. The KEY issue for me is that they should NOT include them into the GSD Breed Survey for many years, at least 5 years, and the guiding principles should be the growth of GSD participating on an annual basis in the Breed Survey alongside training facilities being reasonably available to the vast majority.
The following question is asked by Abby Normal.
"I think the question that truly remains to be answered is, do we, in the UK actually want working tests included? If not then we are in danger of breeding away from a crucial aspect of the GSD, the ability to work?"
I sincerely believe there is a large and growing number of GSD owners who want and would enjoy training their GSD towards gaining a Working Test/Qualification. Many of them are frustrated by the acute lack of suitable training facilities and suitable trainers within reasonable traveling distance of their homes. This must be addressed and it definitely will take time, many many years. However this does mean that great care clearly needs to be exercised when considering what kind of working test could be introduced into the Breed Survey and more importantly when.
If it is introduced prematurely it would definitely exclude many people from gaining a Breed Survey with their GSD, this would then exclude their dog from participating in the GSDL/WUSV Regional Events when they reach the age of 2 years and over. Remember it is the Adult Classes which require the Breed Survey.
The whole question of Working Tests being introduced into the Breed Survey has many pitfalls and for that reason it should be approached in the manner I have suggested in my first opening article on this thread.
The second question by Abbey Normal:
"If not then we are in danger of breeding away from a crucial aspect of the GSD, the ability to work?".
My answer: We are using far more German Dogs in the UK, dogs which are FULLY qualified under the SV System, added to that we are importing a growing number of fully qualified German Dogs and German Bitches. Further there are far more British bred GSD being trained and qualified under the SV System, some here and others in Germany. All of this made possible by the Pedigree Passport System.
There are future prospects that the 6 months time limit on attaining a Pet Passport may be reduced. When this happens there is likely to be further growth in the German GSD influence within the UK. Considering all of this, I would categorically state that the potential working ability of our GSD here in the UK has grown considerable in recent years and this is well set to continue.
Planning and patience is required for the future progress of our GSD in the UK, we have a great deal going for us, we should ensure we avoid shooting ourselves in the foot. I am confident that the exclusion of working tests within our GSD Breed Survey for at least 5 years and with the caveats I have made previously, will be very beneficial for our breed, their owners and our GSDL/WUSV Events and for everyone genuinely interested in our breed future.
by Abby Normal on 28 February 2011 - 00:02
If it is introduced prematurely it would definitely exclude many people from gaining a Breed Survey with their GSD, this would then exclude their dog from participating in the GSDL/WUSV Regional Events when they reach the age of 2 years and over. Remember it is the Adult Classes which require the Breed Survey.
I see your point about timing and not wanting to put people off, but your statement above really means that breed surveys are being aimed at allowing people to be able to compete in regional events, not what the breed survey is really intended for, which is to determine breed worthiness.
I also appreciate all that has been said about the availability of training, but I know of several good establishments where you can send your dog for training to achieve Sch1 etc. in the UK, or that can be attended with your dog. I would think this would also encourage clubs to add ScH training to their programs. Quite a few suddenly offered the KCGC test in the wake of it becoming a requirement.
I see your point about timing and not wanting to put people off, but your statement above really means that breed surveys are being aimed at allowing people to be able to compete in regional events, not what the breed survey is really intended for, which is to determine breed worthiness.
I also appreciate all that has been said about the availability of training, but I know of several good establishments where you can send your dog for training to achieve Sch1 etc. in the UK, or that can be attended with your dog. I would think this would also encourage clubs to add ScH training to their programs. Quite a few suddenly offered the KCGC test in the wake of it becoming a requirement.
by Videx on 28 February 2011 - 00:02
Abby Normal: You either have short memory retention difficulties, or you have very little experience relating to the GSD Breed Survey or its history.
The Breed Survey was dying on its feet, those participating were dwindling at a rapid rate, THEN something was introduced which re-invigorated interest, THE BRITISH SIEGER EVENT, which made the Breed Survey an entry condition for the Adult Classes. Now that should tell you something very clearly and emphatically. The overwhelming majority of GSD breeders have little or no interest in putting their dogs through a breed survey without a meaningful incentive. The future benefit of the breed is NOT a good enough reason on its own, now you may not like that statement but that is exactly the reality.
I am getting very impatient with trying to have a dialogue with you because your knowledge and experience of what you write about is so very limited, you are clearly an opinionated novice with a talent for writing who tries to give the impression of being knowledgeable and experienced in the subject matter you write about, and nothing could be further from the truth. This is very obvious in much of what you write, I have now exhausted my patience with your novice viewpoints, opinions and assertions.
The Breed Survey was dying on its feet, those participating were dwindling at a rapid rate, THEN something was introduced which re-invigorated interest, THE BRITISH SIEGER EVENT, which made the Breed Survey an entry condition for the Adult Classes. Now that should tell you something very clearly and emphatically. The overwhelming majority of GSD breeders have little or no interest in putting their dogs through a breed survey without a meaningful incentive. The future benefit of the breed is NOT a good enough reason on its own, now you may not like that statement but that is exactly the reality.
I am getting very impatient with trying to have a dialogue with you because your knowledge and experience of what you write about is so very limited, you are clearly an opinionated novice with a talent for writing who tries to give the impression of being knowledgeable and experienced in the subject matter you write about, and nothing could be further from the truth. This is very obvious in much of what you write, I have now exhausted my patience with your novice viewpoints, opinions and assertions.
by missbeeb on 28 February 2011 - 07:02
Abby, your comment on a previous post on this thread: IMO the opportunity to achieve the title of British Sieger should only be open to dogs which have achieved the necessary minimum title of Sch1 or IPO1, and have demonstrated the required qualities in addition to health and conformation. Perhaps that would provide some incentive to embrace the whole package.
No "debate" looked for here. however, it is clear that your knowledge is very limited (nothing wrong with that) and your contributions here are less to do with Shepherds than one may initially believe. You just want to win an argument that YOU created.
You do this to just about every thread...
by Member on 28 February 2011 - 08:02
The British Sieger was the life line to the current Breed Survey. This alone was enough to prove that the introduction of any type of shows that would encourage people to survey in the UK needed to be investigated. The whole idea and the purpose of surveys in the UK would have been lost without The British Sieger. The Regional Events have revitalized the reason and need for having a survey and until a compulsory requirement is enforced at all shows it is all we have to help us promote a good healthy future for our breed here in the UK.
We must ask ourselves the question regarding the KC Good Citizen Test and surveys ? could it affect entries at the British Sieger and the Regional Events? if the answer is yes and it would appear this is the situation then we must not allow this to happen. I very much doubt the KC would put this test in as a requirement for all dogs over the age of 2 years at their shows (forgetting surveys), now if they did and it was compulsory then we would really be going places !!
John Ward
We must ask ourselves the question regarding the KC Good Citizen Test and surveys ? could it affect entries at the British Sieger and the Regional Events? if the answer is yes and it would appear this is the situation then we must not allow this to happen. I very much doubt the KC would put this test in as a requirement for all dogs over the age of 2 years at their shows (forgetting surveys), now if they did and it was compulsory then we would really be going places !!
John Ward
by crossingate on 28 February 2011 - 09:02
Very good post John. Like a lot of people here in the UK, I am not good at putting training into my dogs, however I have obtained breed survey Class 1 for several, the most recent being Silkenwood Panusch - as I want to show her at the British Sieger and couldnt have done otherwise.
Sally
Sally
by Videx on 28 February 2011 - 10:02
The GSDL/WUSV System offers our breed the greatest opportunity, in my lifetime in this breed, for meaningful and sustained progress. What is fundamental to ensure this opportunity is fully maximised is the fullest support from ALL GSD enthusiasts, and the greatest care when deciding each issue under consideration, prior to its introduction. If anything may have a negative effect, such as prematurely introducing "Working Tests" do not do it. If anything will have a positive effect, such as introducing the opportunity to gain the title of "British Champion", get on with it.
Our GSD breeds future, here within the UK, is in our hands. We must all do our utmost to ensure we are successful.
A very good start for many GSD enthusiasts would be to JOIN THE GSD LEAGUE.
Join here:
http://www.gsdleague.co.uk/MEMBERSHIP%20OF%20THE%20GSD%20LEAGUE%20OF%20GB.html
Our GSD breeds future, here within the UK, is in our hands. We must all do our utmost to ensure we are successful.
A very good start for many GSD enthusiasts would be to JOIN THE GSD LEAGUE.
Join here:
http://www.gsdleague.co.uk/MEMBERSHIP%20OF%20THE%20GSD%20LEAGUE%20OF%20GB.html
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