No wonder Schutzhund people have a bad reputation - Page 6

Feather; "And what makes you think Schutzhund obedience is harder than AKC, I think AKC obedience is a higher level"

I have competed in both...when talking about the degree of difficulty just comparing the obedeince phase of SchH vs AKC's higher OB levels I would not disagree AKC is a more difficult title to obtain...it is easier to get NQ'd, and you must qualify three times...if your dog screws up and excersise there is no partial points...the whole thing gets NQ'd.

But I am looking more at the level of performance trained to not just the excersises involved.

There is a clear difference in the overall picture in AKC vs SchH OB. In SchH OB just about all the dogs are working in drive, the picture is quick, it's happy it's attentive.  I have seen more than my fair share of lackluster performance in AKC...and the dog can do every excersise perfectly but the overall picture sucks...slow, unattentive etc....and in AKC they don't dock the dog for it....so nothing ever changes.  (yes there are some who work in drive but most do not)

Training a dog "in drive" is the difference, you have a high drive dog who WANTS the reward you posess, and in the beginning stages of training with a strong obnoxious dog it can be challenging.  I handled (for OB in training), someone elses dog in this stage once...nice dog, fine temperament but rediculous prey drive and very strong...he jumped up trying to grab the ball I held near my shoulder and grabbed and held onto my tricep.  If he were my dog and I was experienced as I am now he would have gotten a "heavy hand" for starters.

Training a dog like this is much different and more challenging than training a low drive dog, rewarding with praise or treats like most AKC people do. 

And this is only the obedience phase....when talking about ob in protection comparing it with AKC ob is not even possible.  You are not training ob for shits and giggles, fun and ribbons.  Aside from the competition and points aspect,  Your dog is trained to bite.  Obedience, control and compliance is now paramount and if a heavy hand is what it takes to gain compliance with a strong dog that is very stimulated by bitework, that doesn't give a rats ass about a prong correction, then that is what must be done....undercorrecting would be like throwing gas on a fire. 

Unless you've done both successfully you really can't just assume that one is harder, more difficult or at a higher level than the other. 
Every dog is different, and I will tell you from experience having to be heavy handed is more a rarity than a regular occurance in training....and you have not experienced the kind of dog or the type of training (even motivational) where more than a choker correction is neccessary, so don't be so naive and condemn what you don't have the ability to understand.

Low reading comprehension on here?  What the hell does using a prong collar have anything to do with this discussion. I mention sharpened prong because its another form of abuse, and now posters are trying to argue for holding a dogs head under muddy water as a valid form of training it not to dig.  Just answer the simple question.  ANd Yoshi answer it too, what are you like 23 years old, you seem to know everything so tell me this

WHY DO SOME PEOPLE, SPECIFICALLY SCHUTZHUNDERS, THINK ITS OK TO KICK A DOG?

LMAO...YOU are the one with the low reading comprehension!!

Either you are a troll....or you are really friggin dense!

No, it's people assuming I dont believe in correcting a dog when that's not what its about.  THe thread was started when PowerHaus posted defending a SchH trainer who was accused of kicking a dog, she defended the actions of kicking dogs saying the Germans do it

 Quote: WHY DO SOME PEOPLE, SPECIFICALLY SCHUTZHUNDERS, THINK ITS OK TO KICK A DOG?

Because it is. Do you really not comprehend that maybe the kick is not that hard, but yet it is still a kick ?? PETA is taking applications somewhere.

I hope you are not training peoples dogs.  If you have to kick a dog, you suck royally at training.   You would be kicked out (no pun intended) from any respectable or established training facility for doing something like that

HAHA WOW.

feather your awesome. I really like how you went straight for the weak spot. HAHA LMAO. You hurt my feelings HAHA.

I personally think you  have taken what was written out of context and are thinking it was an outright kick. many people use a thigh  across the dog on advanced forging dogs with a sharp left turn, I have seen experienced decoys use a leg to block off a dog trying to spin the decoy while in the grip, etc.... but none of the tactics are abusive or dangerous to the dog. So you should clarify your exact definition of kicking. any use of legs or out right kicking as hard as you can?
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These are the things you wrote in your first post you are against- that is why some of these were addressed in this thread and the reason i used the ecollar example in my OP.


Whip the dog, - have never whipped a dog w/ the exception of using a whip in helper work. which im sure by the ignorance of your posts you wouldn't have a clue as to why.
pinch ears, - have you ever heard of a traditional forced retrieve? seen it done correctly? one of the most valuable skills to train IMO
electrify the sleeve, - never done this
shock collar, - I use ecollars to train daily- from pet dogs to top sport competition dogs. including one of my own. It is a training tool not a punishment tool as many seem to believe,
sharpen prong - never done this and am against it.
micro pinch, - great for finishing a dog in some circumstances IMO. 

So feather- why dont you list your accolades- titled dogs- active working dogs- client titled or active working dogs- etc......
or be so kind to give us some incite on how you train and your experience? since you seem to question ours?

Pretty sure I covered this but I will say it again....If you have never had a strong dog who ignored or became further stimulated by a prong correction or came up the leash at you...or you have never trained in a venue other than pet OB or AKC OB.....you are clearly NOT capable of understanding.  (read my other posts for further explaination)...and since you obviously don't see it...good luck with training your pink bunnies!

Right on, GSDfan, Lee, Jeffy. Feather, you are so green it's eco. 

PS. I'm not a Schutzhunder.

I have strong high drive dogs and I correct when needed by either verbal or a snap on the prong collar and that is it.  If a dog "comes up the leash at you" then it's something wrong YOU are doing, or have done, in training.  Something was done wrong, or rushed too fast at some point. 

Someone said what if you want a dog to heel and he is trying to go for the helper instead, well then obviously your obedience is not ready for that level of distraction and the answer is not to correct the dog so hard he comes back at you trying to bite you.  Your SchH dog should be working for you, and should be enjoying to come back to you for the reward of ball or tug.  Consider the helper just another distraction and your recall is poor.  Or you can try to cut corners and just rip the dogs head off for not instantly heeling when hes not ready for the exercise, then it ends like this, with dogs getting kicked and hangd because the handler has no idea of how to train a dog

The only other reason besides bad training is if it's an unsound too reactive dog and those traits should not be promoted through breeding.  Bad genetics. If your dog will attack you when in drive, then you need help from a trainer, you have a lot more to learn and being only a 20-something kid in a suit, you should not speak like you are a master trainer, no offense to you.  Maybe you are competing on a world level with very high scores I don't know.  Pinching a dogs ears is not needed to teach a retrieve.  even a forced retrieve.  It is considered cruel and outdated technique to do so, i will classify that with the sharpened prongs pretty much same thing as micropinch, and for kicking I mean striking with the foot and leg to deliver pain to a dog.