can untained dogs really protect? - Page 6

Preston,
Yes, Walter Martin has done great things for the GSD breed.  It must have been all of those "gangster" dogs that he used as you describe.  GSD's were different back in the 60's, 70's and 80's; at that time you could find SL dogs that would work.  That is until the Martin brothers created the dichotomy and massive split we now have between the SL and WL dogs.   Although a nice, history lesson we are talking about dogs in this century.  I would not credit the Martin brothers influence with creating strong GSD's, that is not their legacy or the mark they left on this breed.   If you do not believe this go on youtube and watch the protection routines of the BSZS in the past 10 years.  You will see the contribution of their "gangster" dogs. 

BTW, it is now 2011. 

Removed



This horrifying story was in our newspaper today! Excerpt and link:

Officer Jeff Nielsen, Milford police spokesman, said that the investigation into the apparent murder-suicide is not complete, and that he couldn't discuss where Rocky was found in the house. "It did have several puncture-type wounds, but whether it was trying to protect her ... we'll never know that for sure."

Read more: http://www.ctpost.com/news/article/Dog-stabbed-during-murder-suicide-struggles-to-2196810.php#ixzz1ZXuoHeSq

Walter Martin certainly wasn't known for developing or promoting the type of dogs that would protect without being trained. He didn't use the right bloodlines for this, and the ones that were successful in show and work....he moved away from them.

I did not mean to imply that Walter Martin or his brothers work should be praised for what he did for (and against) the breed, although I did like his brothers GSD more.  I used Walter Martin as a source who publicly disclosed the use of gangster dogs because he was the only high ranking SV official that ever openly discussed the typical use of gangser dogs in many of the top kennels of his day and may have had to use them more often than others due to the direction his breeding was taken in order to produce top conformation. There is so much more to this story and some is not appropriate for this forum.  But those close to Walter Martin knew that he was a driving force in the development of the black and red GSD zuchtschau winning dogs and a world market based on them, easily recognizable for color and type. It has been proposed by top breed wardens in Germany that a great deal was sacrificed as far as the most desirable working traits in order to attain this very successful world market for zuchtscahu GSDs, a market some have viewed as a very profitable cartel, a success story beyond the dreams of the early GSD breeders and will always be beyond the now bifurcated working line breeders. Reason is because the world market is in a sense directly based on the stark visible beauty of a black and red male with strong secondary sex characteristics (that's right, male type and great heads was prominant in these GSDS) because foks ae into beauty above all. Most folks who have been close up and examined one of the top VA or high V dogs from the top German SV zuchtschau competition are strongly impacted by the beauty of these dogs and their strong curbside appeal.  It is this strong curbside appeal, like a fine work of art that has drawn so many around the world to want to acquire on of these beautiful GSDs. Now there are more than quite a few very good WL breeders in the world which produce well balanced GSDs with proper working temperament in some of their best progeny but only a few ever have the extreme curbside appeal of these top winning black and red zuchtschau GSDs. Due to the most extreme competition in profung imaginable, WL dogs have also been linebred to emphasize traits needed to win in profung often at the expense of other desireable and correct character traits, thus a huge tradeoff often not realized by most which are involved too closely.   

Now it is more than just interesting that Walter, a successful attorney (if I remember correctly), greatly resisted the use of DNA to verify pedigrees.  Now folks can connect the dots here if they wish and come to their own conclusions as to what this has to do with the development of Canto bloodlines and periodic breeding in of a certain set of gangster dogs. 

Slamdunc, I never implied what you suggest nor did I parise Walter Martin for his use of gangster dogs.  I think you misread or misunderstood my post. I am very much aware of the breeds real history and many of the conflicts discussed by top breed wardens in the background which never get publicity. 

In my post above I simply reported history. Walter Martin never invented the use of the gangster dog kept for breeding corrections, it was used many years before he came on the scene. He may have used it more than others due to some additional problems his own linebreeding produced.

I am well aware of the allegations against zuchtschau breders who have been accused of sacrficing working traits for looks and movement.  But I am also well aware of serious allegations leveled against many working line breeders who have misused linebreeding to concentrate traits to win in profung no matter what, thereby sacrficing other important traits such as looks, movement and intelligence, judgement etc.  Genetic experts have been critical of both WL and SL for doing too much line breeding, thus sacrificing longevity, robustness and overall health.  

As I said before, if one wants to know what it takes to get a great police dog, go to those that breed, select, train them and use them and win in top police dog competition.  In my neighboring city the piolice always place very high and often win the top competition.  Reason, because they get the best GSDs, have the very best trainers in the whole USA and are extremely knowledgable about what it takes for a very successful police dog. Now if one wants to know how to get a top winning zuchtschau GSD, then it is best to go to those who breed, select, train, show and win in the SV conformaton shows.  And if one wants to acquire a GSD that can be successfully trained to win in the profung competition, it is best to go to someone who breeds, selects and trains WL dogs that win in schutzhund. And the same for someone who wants a strong family protection dog who lives in the home 24/7 around kids, it is best to go to someone who has a long successful history of breeding GSDs which are great and safe 24/7 in home family protectors that are also healthy, a person well known for selling GSDs that can protect one's family without posing an unnecessary liability.  Each of these types of GSDs are somewhat different and an expert in one area does not guarentee that they can breed, select or train a GSD that will fulfill the roles in another area, although that sometimes occurs.  In my experience a knowledgeable buyer can usually find a WL or SL puppy that has the needed potential for a 24/7 home protector if he knows the breeding, and knows what to select for and knows the history of the breeder. 

 

It is good to emphasize the issue of overspecialization in the selective breeding of special use GSDs and the deleterious efects on the GSD breed in general since the late 1970's. 

I have been told by highly respected breeders of WL GSDs, some who have had top winners, that in order to win, the dog must be a "prey monster" over and above everything else.  That the profung competition in Germany and Europe is now worldwide in reach and so ultra competitive that WL breeders who want to win must carefully breed dogs that in essence become single use dogs, ie oriented to profung only.  Many of these dogs are kennel dogs only and agitated before they go into competition to perform with an edge. Due to the typical high prey drive, their progeny may not be suitable for the average family which wants a good 24/7 in home family pet and protector with no or minimal personal protection training. 

Zuchtschau competition in Germany and Europe (and the USA too) is now worldwide in reach and also ultra-competitive.  If one wants to win, certain traits must be selectively bred in using extensive linebreeding and must be emphasized over and above other traits not central to winning in the zuchtschau ring. Many of the progeny of these top zuchtschau winners are culls and neither good in conformation nor in working traits either.  Zuchtschau folks who breed, train and win in the showring may not necessarily have the knowledge to produce and sell GSDs to families with good health, vitality and are naturally good protectors with minimal or no PP training.

And some breeders who export WL GSDs for police work which make great police dogs, may have trouble providing good GSDs which are suitable for 24/7 family pets and protectors.  It all comes down to the individual breeder.  I know of one major European WL breeder (Czech) who actually can provide a fairly large range of GSDs including very successful police and service dogs, and some very suitable as great family pets and protectors and knows his GSDs extremely well, but this is not necessarily the norm for WL breeders.  There are several WL breeders I know of in the USA which produce excellent service and police dogs as well as some great family 24/7 in home pets and protectors but many of their GSDs are only very good in IPO or Sch and not top winners or top placers, and these folks are the exception because they tend to produce a well balanced, thinking and reasoning GSDs that can work and be a great family pet and protector too (these breeders are worth their weight in gold).

Conclusion:  the overspecialization and bifurcation of the GSD breed was done in order to win in grueling worldwide SL & WL competition and this has slowly but unequivocably resulted in the loss of the type of total GSD that Capt. Von Stephanitz wanted the GSD to remain, ie a strong, stable, smart dog that could work and protect but was docile around family, friends and family pets at the end of the day.  Don't believe it, just read his classic book which has been translated into English and look at the photos. 

I have no problem with anything you wrote, Preston. Your summary is basically correct, and only the people addicted to these two ventures fail to see or admit these things. It is what it is.

Gustav, I know that you are a very knowledgable breeder and trainer.  Do you have any particular suggestions for certain WL blood lines that tend to make good 24/7 in home family pets and protectors and are healthy and robust with good sex type and fairly good conformation? 

Or is it as some have suggested that it is usually the individual dog that must be selected due to typical variance in even the best pedigreed litters (even if from a very sound and correct sire and dam) and that bloodlines can increase the probability of a good choice, but provide little certainty?  I know firsthand that many high showline breeders in Europe and Germany produce only a few really top conformation dogs each years out of a number of litters from very good V rated or above bitches, so it is a fair assumption that this is very, very difficult.

I would be interested in any suggestions you have on this issue, especially what the role of early socialization and proper training is for a 24/7 family pet and protector.

I know from experience for myself and friends, some who are quite knowledgable breeders, that acquiring or breeding a GSD that looks like a GSD should, acts like a GSD should, and moves like a GSD should while being healthy and robust (according to the standard) is very difficult, especially the temperament and health part.  My experience has been that some tradeoff must be made unless one buys an older very expensive dog that is fully vetted and rated because buying a young puppy can carry significant risk of developing adversely.  In the past when I have made a tradeoff, I have selected for temperament and health over conformation and occasionally been fortunate to get both.

One thing I disagree with this is the term "type" should not be exclusively used by the bastard bifurcaters of the breed. I find it confusing that the word is only used in reference toward physical characteristics. "The usual linebreeding needed to stabilize type often diluted natural aggression and drives," By "type", you must be refering solely to the selective breeding of showline characteristics, because linebreeding does not reduce aggression and drives.

By using type, I was referring to a certain overall look, such as a large male head with noticable angulations at both ends, good prosturnum, close to the standard.  Type as the ideal SL construct (obviously physical attrributes in this case for SL), but the WL breeders that compete and win in profung have their own types they bred for and these tend to be more concerned iwth actual field performance behaviorally and capacvity to learn and be trained.

Type can be used by anyone to represent any particular complex of selected characteristic which covary, that is occur together and tend to be present in dogs which become podium dogs in either profung or zuchtschau or tend to characterize a selct kennels typical preferred progeny.