DM Death Statistics in the GSD among the PDB members - Page 6

-- > Marj, I don't know one GSD breeder who has cut any dogs from a breeding program due to the results of the test.
 
Have you heard of anyone advertising at risk studs or bitches? Would you breed to a dog who tested at risk for DM? If your answer is no, you ARE basically cutting that stud out of the gene pool and perhaps allowing other horrid diseases to be concentrated, without proof the test is, indeed, accurate.

Yes, I would breed to an at risk. IT'S NOT A TEST OF ELIMINATION.

No, I don't know all the breeders in the world, do you? I would invite any who have eliminated dogs based soley on the Coates DNA test to respond.

Would you advertise your at risk dog, if you had one?

Gustav, the goal is simply to not produce anymore at risks. No dog needs to be eliminated in order to do that. It's a simple recessive gene.

Of course I'd say a dog tested at risk if I were advertising it for breeding.

 I have to ask- if you truly believe in this test, WHY would you breed to an*at risk* dog or a carrier???? Isnt that hypocritical? Its like being slightly pregnant- one cannot be slightly pregnant- one either is, or one is not...If you believe this test is accurate, what would possess you to breed to an at risk dog or a carrier, both of which, according to the OFA DNA test, could pass along this disease?  Saying its a *tool* is a red herring- what good is a tool if it isnt accurate, and if it IS accurate, why would you chance passing along DM? I am not trying to be argumentative- I am TRULY trying to understand... If one believes the test is worthwhile and valid, why ignore the results? Ignoring the results says you do not believe in it or that you dont care- it has to be one or the other..

Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
BE PROACTIVE!
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate  

I don't consider breeding to an at risk as being hypocritical or ignoring the results. Marj, it is clear that you have no use for the Coates test and that's OK, but I think it's better than nothing and plan to utilize the results. Could we just agee to disagree and move on please?

 You know what keeps going through my mind, as I think about this? Remember the song that goes
 

Just what makes that little old ant
Think he'll move that rubber tree plant
Anyone knows an ant, cant
Move a rubber tree plant

But he's got high hopes, he's got high hopes
He's got high apple pie, in the sky hopes

So any time your gettin low
Stead of lettin go
Just remember that ant
Oops there goes another rubber tree plant

Sadly, high hopes or high apple pie in the sky hopes wont move the DM rubber tree plant :(
 
A pin is a tool, as is an ax. If you want to cut down a tree,  a pin wont do it. If you try to cut down a tree with a pin, you will fail. If you want to cut down that tree, you better use the right tool or you wont be successful. If you believe the test is accurate, why would you disregard the results? If you disregard the results, that means you dont have a lot of faith in it. If you dont have enpugh faith in it, then what good does it do to test? I am seriously having a problem finding the logic in it. If you had the money to purchase an ax to cut down a tree, why would you purchase a pin to try to accomplsih that task?

Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
BE PROACTIVE!
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate  

Marjorie, just because there have been some dogs that were N/N or carrier status on the OFA test went on to develop DM later does NOT automatically completely invalidate the test.  It identifies the fact that additional work is needed to determine what else may influence the development of the diseases that are collectively termed Degenerative Myelopathy--because I think it's painfully evident that there is MORE than one type of neurologic disorder that strips the myelin from the nerves and affects the GSD.  Just as Dr. Clemmons' test wasn't yet 100% predictive, neither is the OFA test--but both have their place in making breeding decisions, IMO. 

Would I breed a dog that had tested at risk? Possibly...because that's not the sole yardstick by which to measure a potential breeding candidate. Would I breed a dog that tested 'at risk' to another 'at risk'? No, I wouldn't pair them up, but I would breed either or both of them to a dog that tested clear. Would I want a puppy from a parent who had an 'at risk' test result? If the other parent had tested clear, then without question; if the other parent was listed as a carrier, then again, it's back to possibly, because I'd need to consider what else was being brought to the table with the breeding overall.

I believe there's a place for BOTH tests, frankly.  There are a number of diseases that have multiple test options available, and protocols have subsequently developed as to how to best use the different types of test to get the highest degree of confidence in the results.  If it's correct that one or more forms of DM is at its base a predisposition due to genetics, but needs an additional push from some other trigger--a taxing of the immune system by something in the environment, for example--then we're going to NEED tests that assess different points of reference.  One test needn't--and SHOULDN'T--necessitate the demise or derision of another, when the goal is ultimately to try and predict whether another dog and another owner will have to go through the firewalking that is DM. 

I know you've been at the forefront of getting people educated as to what the disease is, and what it does, and without your involvement in the program, the work done at UFla would have moved far more slowly and with far less support...so let's figure out how to get the money to go directly to that research, and make it possible for Dr. Clemmons and his crew to gain more ground toward better tests and better treatments.  For example, it was mentioned on here recently that George Foreman has long been heavily involved in the German-line GSDs; has anyone approached him to see if he would help support the continued work by Dr. Clemmons? 

This shouldn't be, and doesn't have to be, a competition between tests and between researchers--it has to be about the dogs, and just the dogs. Without them, there's no point in the research or the testing anyway.

--- > Could we just agee to disagree and move on please?

I truly want to understand! Is that a crime?
I want to understand WHY a test that has been proven wrong, for our breed, is so embraced... Is that so hard to comprehend? Yes, of course we can agree to disagree, but I want to know the reasoning behind this. People dont agree on everything all the time and they never have- Ijust want to understand, thats all.


Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
BE PROACTIVE!
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate