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by Sunsilver on 25 July 2009 - 04:07
Here are two different views of this type of motion. I've heard it said that the tight leash contributes to it, but in the first picture the leash is slack, though the handler could be holding tightly to the collar.
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by Uber Land on 25 July 2009 - 04:07
to me this dog has full extension of his shoulder, the dogs you pictured do not.
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whatever faults this young champion may have, I still feel he is properly using his shoulder.
by Rik on 25 July 2009 - 05:07
In my opinion, the two dogs you show are both being lifted up in the front by the handler. Maybe Randy Brent will stop by and comment on Ronaldo, since that is his dog.
In American show lines, it is often a matter of the dog having such a very extreme rear and a front that does not match. This requires that the front actually remain off the ground a little longer to allow the rear time to complete it's stroke.
This is a very simplistic view and many other things can come into play.
Although obviously it must come from poor structure, it is often very "showy" A perfect example would be Am. Grand Victor & Ch. Hickory Hill Bull Durham. This dog certainly "reached for the stars" , yet still became a very top dog in Am. S/L
Rik
by Rik on 25 July 2009 - 05:07
Many things I don't like about this dog, but he is a very good example of "timing"
His extended limbs are very obviously at full extension at the exact same instant., and feet are close to the ground. His off side limbs also exhibit near perfect coordination, being at the limit of "gathering" under his body for the next stroke..
This is "balance". Everything where it should be at the exact instant it should be there.
Of course, JMHO and I invite further comment.
Rik
by Sunsilver on 25 July 2009 - 05:07
So, would you say the same holds true for the German showlines as well? I've seen it much more often in German showlines than American, which makes me think the differences in the hips and back have something to do with it, too.
by TIG on 25 July 2009 - 08:07
Chris, thank you for the link to Dingo. It is unfortunate that in today's world of You tube Abe the oversized longhair shepherd has more than 78,000 views while the greats of the GSD world only gather a few thousand. Is the longer ReiVision version no longer avialable?
Julie, I would ask that you would go back up and read my last post. I finally got the compter to load the correct post and I have commented on why a mere picture is not enough. If is was we would not need dog shows - just send in your photos.
I congratulate you, you have a very attactive bitch. I personally do not see the Andretti in her. I think she is much more a throwback to the the original Kolbrook type. Perhaps you were not familiar with them? The basis for their line included several beautiful German and half German bitches and males. Some pictures of Kolbrook dogs from the old days. Perhaps you could post the pictures ( I am unable to do so).
http://www.gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/kbitches/KolbrookAllezFrance.html
http://www.gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/kdogs/KolbrookExpensiveHobby.htm http://www.gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/kbitches/KolbrookGilette.htm
http://www.gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/kbitches/KolbrookRainyLake.html
Her son is very nice also but the break in the wrist in his front motion is incorrect.
I disagree with your statements re walking. Yes, a dog with a good shoulder will do fine but no not all incorrect shoulders are immediately obvious - some are more subtle and it is those that will be exposed by the walking which is more stressful than the trotting. I've already made my comments about why pictures are simply inadequate to judge structure. Merely tweaking the angle the shot is taken from can totally change how the dog appears.
Re your statement on pacing - I never said anything about pacing at a walk. I have seen dogs pacing when they should have been trotting - as I noted it is a fatigue gait which tells me something about their structure. Note I never said I was a judge either but if I were I would penalize a dog that can not walk or trot when asked to and instead paces. There is a reason there is a whole separate horsebreed that paces vs trotting and last I heard the GSD was a trotting breed.
Mea culpa on my shorthand use re an upright pastern. Yes I do know the standard and yes I do know what terriers and many other breeds have for pasterns. I was simply trying to quickly distinguish dogs who actually stand on their feet as opposed to hock walkers.
by TIG on 25 July 2009 - 09:07
Finally re your comment that if I want to see correct fronts I should go to the Nationals.
I went to my first GSDCA national in 1968 in Patterson NJ in the days when they were held on a high school football field and cars where lined up on the sidelines to use their headlights for lights when judging ran late and the sun went down. I've been going to as many as I can since then. Unfortunately the last one I was able to attend was in 2004 but it was pretty typical of Nationals. Far more incorrect, out of balance dogs than correct, balanced dogs because at its core the GSDCA fancy still loves the flashy hackney front and the driving rear with a much too long stifle. I'm not saying there are not nice dogs. There are but it has always been tough looking for the nuggets of gold. While I enjoy watching breed and always will, these days you are far more likely to find me watching herding and schutzhund where the dogs actually get to use their intelligence, strength , drive and motion.
I have also attended a substantial number of the sieger show since they began in this country as well as all breed shows, obedience, herding ,tracking , agility and schutzhund trials and clinics and breed and health seminars. Not only are these great learning opportunities but you often find a very different picture of what dogs and kennels are producing since the "rejects" are often sold to obedience, agility etc competitors
I have only ever been a very very small player in the GSD world due to limited time, space, money and family obligations. I have competed successfully, albeit on a very small scale, in breed, obedience, herding and schutzhund and all my dogs have been H.O.T. and most of them H.O.T. bred. But it has been my love, my passion, my hobby for these many years and I have spent that time ( and still do) trying to learn about structure and bloodlines and health. I have been blessed with good friends in the GSD world who have let me babysit litters, take young dogs thru puppy kindegarten, share their journey in the show and breeding world and talk and talk and talk about GSD.
To me the most beautiful site in the world is a GSD running free and naturally through a meadow of green grass ( and its only better from the dogs point of view and mine if that field is shared with some sheep). Watching dogs run free is very very different from the artificial world of dog shows.
by TIG on 25 July 2009 - 09:07
As noted above there are a number of causes of the hackney action and most of the major ones have been covered. But you are right - it sure isn't correct. At it's heart whatever the cause is that the dog is out of balance.
You can actually have a dog with a correct front assembly but who has more rear than front and thus the front is lifted to compensate for the rear. So the front is correct, the fault is one of balance caused by too extreme of the rear.
On the other hand there are dogs with incorrect fronts that can also exhibit this motion. Typically these dogs for whatever reason do not or can not use their shoulder correctly and they lift from the elbow not the shoulder. This is far more incorrect in my mind than the first dog noted because this is a problem with the front assembly ( as I noted above it may not be the bone structure but a problem with muscles and ligaments or even bad elbows).
Occasionally, you will see this also in what I call a two piece dog - usually one long in the back tho not always but acts like he has a swivel bolt in the middle of his back and the front end and back end appear to operate independently of each other instead of as a fluid whole.
As noted if the dog is strung up he may appear to have this fault when he in fact does not. This to me is unforgiveable. It is very easy to teach a dog to move on a loose lead. It's an obedience exercise like any other and why would you not want your dog to look it's best?
While you may be seeing more in hi-line dogs these days, these faults of balance and incorrect front assembly and motion have been endemic in the American show lines for decades.
Rik, enjoyable discussion. Suggestions for the future if I may ( just not too soon)
length and curvature of stifle and how it affects overall gait and front assemblies
length of back and loin and what the diference is
withers and the dip behind the withers and the role in motion
croups and tailset
by Sunsilver on 25 July 2009 - 14:07
Tig, don't you live in England now? Or am I confusing you with someone else? And how's the little guy in your sig doing? Still doing a mean 'hold and bark' on an oven mitt?
by july9000 on 25 July 2009 - 16:07
I have NEVER EVER seen a GSD doing that. What you are talking about is when they lift the front..this isn't hacney (but still very serious fault of gaiting). Usually a dog lift the front because the ratio upper arm/scapula is not correct (scapula short) they can't open the shoulder so they lift the front. When the angle is not good or the upper arm is too short they tend to not be able to open much of the arm at all..that you can improve by letting the dog pull on the leash so you help it look better in front. The lifting front is very hard to hide (still some judge don't see it!).
Sunsilver..this poor dog can't move correctly..he has no croup..way too long hocks..no rear angulation..roach and the front is faulty (look at the lenght of his upper arm versus scapula). I don't think he lift the front because of it's stucture tought on this picture)..I think he is just pulling too much on the lead..even if he wouldn't do that the front is poor..actually if the picture was to be taken at a different moment during gaiting..pulling on the lead might improve is poor stucture..
TIG I don't know what you mean by fatigue gait when talking about pacing..some dog you have to lift before start gaiting to stop them from pacing but they can trot..some never does that some do..like I said usually too long in body.
JMO
Have a good day everyone!!
Julie
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