Showline Sable GSDs - Page 7

I'm sorry......what do you mean by "tan-tipped" legs??
Do you have a picture?
In my opinion......tan legs or feet, with no other tan marking on the over-all body is considered a true bi-color........?!
Chris...may have to jump into this conversation.......I am not "fluent" with bi-color, black/tan, blankets...etc...descriptions of predominantly "working line" colors........sorry guys!   
Robin

 I mean with teensy little teensy teensy bits of brown on pasterns and hocks, which didn't materialize until the dog was mature. But you couldn't tell until the dog was about a year old that it was Bi-Color. So do you go back and have that changed? Specifically, I'm talking about Pike progeny. 

No. that is still solid black with bleed through of the underlying color that the dog carries genetically but are not seen.  My understanding is that in a solid black, the saddle covers the entire body. 

Pharaoh has gold inbetween his toes.  Neither of his parents are solid black, but obviously, both carried the solid black gene.  His parents are both really black sables.

Michele

OK! Thanks! 

Hey Robin,
here is a link to Germany's 2008 Universal Sieger. Hard to believe but Woody is still described as a black dog: www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/105712/Woody-vom-Dreisbachtal 
I was told that as long as the dog's vent (under the tail) is black as well, the genetic make-up is considered as solid black. But the black gene is a masking gene. Therefore, a black dog is not necessarily useful to enhance pigment or black markings. In addition, black dogs can and often do carry the "white spotting" gene (which has nothing to do with the color white as in the Swiss Shepherds). I have a 4 month old black puppy at home with a small white spot on her chest. It irritates my husband but I think it is cute. These spots are quite common in black and red and sable dogs  but not very noticable. Anyway, I remember Oso's thread about her black dog with the bleed through sable pattern. For me that is proof that black is a masking gene. In Oso's case it did not quite mask everything, maybe. I have a newborn litter with blacks and dark sables here and have not figured out how many are truly black and which are very dark sable. A couple where I thought they were black have a couple lighter areas which I thought was caused by the red heating light. So, I have to wait and see. The sire is a Czech dog where the sable coloring is completely different than the showlines. Which brings us back to the topic, lol.
Chris

That's a perfect example of the coloring I'm talking about, although it's not really significant. I was really just giving an example of a dog's apparent color changing and wondering if its registration ought to be altered if it did. Another example:
www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/119716.html 

Silbersee, are melanistic bi-color dogs useful for improving pigment?

Yes, I do think that melanistic bi-colors improve pigment.
Pigment (or color -  these definitions are not necessarily the same) stems from the D color gene (dilution factor).
All GSDs carry the Agouti gene, according to Willis . Bicolor is a-t and saddle marked is a-s (a is black). Sable patterns are a-y (red/tan sables) and a-w (grey sables).  - I wonder what "black sables" are?
When looking at showline sables, they must be a-y/s if that is possible, some show that phenotype more, some less (if that makes sense). The a-w variation is mostly present in workinglines.
What seems true is that through these selective breedings during the last few decades, the showlines follow a different coat pattern than some workinglines, or more correctly, the showlines have lost a lot of patterns which the workinglines still have (black, bicolor, different mask etc.) which is a true pity. The showlines all have saddle patterns (a-w) which apparantly also appears in combination with the sable coat color. Hence, the distinct different look. Of course, there are workinglines with that pattern as well, but not as often.
BTW, the fading black saddle is described by Willis as influenced by "The Extension or E-series" - he calls it the faded ee-dog (often mistaken for a "golden sable"). Interesting: The brindle color is found in this series as well, but is only present in phenotype through "a black striping effect in the tan markings" (extremely rare nowadays in our breed, almost lost).
Ok, my head is hurting now from these numbers, I am going to bed. Too scientific for me, but if you sit back and play it back in your head, it makes sense. I looked it up in the Willis book (page 37ff), if you have a copy. When you read these pages, it seems that there are a lot more color series which could play a role in how a dog looks.
Chris

Thanks a lot...that clarified a few things for me. I'm sure I'll understand it thoroughly in about l6 years!  

And here is my showline sable gsd,

When she was 4 months




She was 10 and half months


Her headshot


And here she is 9 and half months with Martina from Urbecke kennels.

And here I thought I had it all figured out....Now I'm more confused than ever!  I would never have called the first bunch of dogs shown as sable.  Black & Red saddle backs, faded yes but the puppy pictures tell the story.  WOW is all I have to say about that.  I'd of never guessed it.

Liesjers,
Interesting that this dog came from a sable mother.  My girl's sire is black and tan, typical saddle back pattern.  Her dam is a blanket back, black & red, very dark. (I wonder if she could really be a black sable) Yet my girl looks very much like the one in your pic. 
The hairs on her outer thighs are multicolored...it reminds me of wolves, each hair is multicolored.  I registered her as a black and tan.  If the multicolored hairs keep creeping she may end up as a sable but she didn't start out that way. 

Curious.  I have so much to learn.  Comments from the color experts are welcome!
Deb

Echo as a puppy...(isn't she adorable...little land shark!)


And as a 15 month old.