DM Death Statistics in the GSD among the PDB members - Page 7

--- > Just as Dr. Clemmons' test wasn't yet 100% predictive, neither is the OFA test--

But Dr Clemmons NEVER claimed his test was predictive. It was a starting point. He never made predictions about passing along DM to future generations or developing DM. The only thing he claimed, backed up by necropsies, was that a dog that exhibited signs of DM that had  a positive Flash Test, had the same incidence of DM as dogs that had the more serious tests.
The OFA has made quite a leap of faith, saying their test is predictive, without even following up on the first generation of dogs, throughout their lives, let alone their progeny...

Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
BE PROACTIVE!
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate  

I do the test because it's available and I think it's the right thing to do.

Hexe, of course there is room for more than one researcher in looking to solve the DM puzzle. I would welcome other researchers with open arms, if they were researching DM of the GSD! However, my bone of contention is that GSDM is NOT ALS, as Dr Coates claims it is! Thats the crux of the problem I have with Dr Coates research.  Dr Coates is lumping all DM into ONE category and treating them as if they are the same disease, and they are not, and never will be. All breeds get a chronic, and progressive degeneration of the spine, but they are not all the same disease, even though they are all referred to as DM. DM is a catch all phrase.  However, GSDM is the polar opposite of ALS. I just lived though it with Missie T, and lived through it with Jack Flash. My uncle had ALS and the diseases are nothing alike- they dont even present the same way, so yes, I DO have a problem with someone who uses DM as a catch all phrase and says that one size fits all. That just throws our breed under the bus, and I wont have it...I owe it to Jack Flash and to Missie T to do my best to make sure that German Shepherds are not lost in the shuffle. If I am guilty of anything, its loving the breed too much to promote something I KNOW is dead wrong :(


Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
BE PROACTIVE!
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate  

I think most people have said if someone wants to use the test,and it makes them feel good, by all means. But people were pushing this test and implying that breeders that don't test are somehow being negligent as breeders. As more empirical data about the test has been provide, it appears the test can be misleading in cases, and because of this does not produce the reliable predictive element that would be necessary for people to be considered negligent for not using it. It appears some have difficulty in accepting this, for most of us we want to possess the data on the disease and the test and logical decisions can be made about the effective use or no use for our programs.

Precisely, Gustav. It's the "bad breeder" stigma slapped on people who don't test for it that is irksome. There are what I'd call puppymills testing for it and a myriad of other things as a guise for "responsibility" and "ethical breeding" that are getting the thumbs up here because of this DM craze and long-time, smaller breeders who are doing everything right are being treated as the BYB for not testing for everything under the sun, whether heard of in their breed or not. 

Jenni, It's a very emotional issue for some that have personally experienced the disease. Understandable! As a result there is strong passion and emotions in some responses and the need to grasp at something that can help combat the disease. Still, I think that sound common sense breeding practices still has to be the foundation of combating this disease. Right now, until there is more conclusive data, I will continue to monitor the information on the dogs that are affected and known producers, look for any patterns I can find, and stay away from these dogs. So far that works for me. After all, often their is just as much to be learned from those that aren't affected as their is from those that are. I try to look at both sides of coin.

For pete sake, test your dogs, don't test your dogs. I am sorry I ever got involved in this discussion again. Now its getting all spun around to try to make those who don't test look like victims. For months the lament here was  - prove that MY LINES are involved and we'll do that test.  Hudson proved that by posting some pedigrees here of at risks and those dogs many insisted to be exempt have been shown to not be.

There is a test available that may have an impact on the future of the breed. It is  non-invasive, reasonable priced, and regardless of the results, no dogs need to be withheld from a breeding program. Use it, don't use it, personally I couldn't care less.

We x-ray all our dogs spines for signs of any unusual changes. We order all the DM test & my vet advise us not to rely on the results over x-rays.
Basically for reasons already discussed. You can tell a lot from a knowledgeable vet from a x-ray of an adult dog & compare results over a 2-3 year period.

My vet had another GSD breeder come in very worried over a litter of puppies. They had the sire & dam DM results come back as AT Risk & Carrier.
They then tested all 8 puppies. Almost all puppies results were normal, except 2 were carriers. But does this make sense to you? It didn't to them.
So they re-tested the sire & dam through a different place. Now the results came back - Normal & Normal for parents.
They then re-tested the 2 puppies listed as carriers. Second test still showed the results as them being carriers.

I've owned a Dog with DM in the past, Shelly. She was a Afghan Hound I rescued at 5 years old. She lives in general good health until 17 years old when her DM started.
Her DM was very fast progressing & we lost her in a matter of a few short months. She was very proud great dog.

I would like a more reliable test for DM then the one currently they are providing. I'm curious to see some of the dogs with results as AT Risk if they got re-tested what their results would be. 

As it stand by the OFA site majority of AT Risk & Carrier GSD's are American SL's. Next seem to be German SL's & some WL's with Czech pedigrees as stated before.
The minority is the West German, DDR, & other Czech base working line dogs. Yes, it is in all lines but maybe the rate of line / in-breeding accruing most often in show lines
brought this recessive GSD DM disorder to the surface-? If this is true many working lines are starting to line breed heavily on certain dogs & that is why those lines are
appearing on the DM list as well.

A push should be made through AKC to donate $ for further DM research for German Shepherds. Many times they will put a % of registion fee toward a certain research for a breed.

  

 

Most dogs that have been tested are ASL's followed by GSL's followed by WL's.  Most at risks are not identified with a pedigree and most are listed using their call names.  If one has the desire to do so, it wouldn't be all that difficult to compare the results against the number tested. I suspect there would little difference. The ASL people started testing 4 years ago when the test first became available so there are more ASL's on the OFA website. I seriously doubt the showlines alone can be blamed for DM. 

Those inconsistent results should be reported directly to the OFA assuming they were done using the UM lab. A friend's  GSD tested as "affected" with the Flash Test, a "carrier" with the UM test. He was only 2 years old at the time and was suffering from rear end lameness and incoordination. After having surgery 4 years ago he is no longer showing any signs of DM. My understand is that a positive Flash test indicated an active case of DM.

I think the GSDCA did donate a large sum/s to Clemmons' research, later went with Coates. I think this club could petition the AKC to donate funds to The Canine Health Foundation earmarked for GSD DM research. They have spent almost one million following 14 dogs that served for less than 10 days at Ground Zero. Ironically they left out the K-9's that spent many months there, many of which died from one of the leukemias and other cancers that could have been related to their duty there. I do not know how they prioritize their projects.

DM cannot be diagnosed and carriers can't be identified with an xray of the spine.





 

-- >My understand is that a positive Flash test indicated an active case of DM.

No, that is not correct. The Flash Test had the same efficacy as the more invasive tests in a dog showing the symptoms of DM. It was a *tool* as you like to call tests.

 Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
BE PROACTIVE!
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy