what do u think about cow hocks - Page 7

dawulf, i agree with you on the in/line breeding. But I do feel that there is a little more that can be told about the German dogs besides hip/elbow scores. One is that generation after generation had a full mouth, one dog here is well known for missing teeth.

another is that off leash, the german dogs were willing to go away from the handler/owner and engage a helper. even if they only did it for play time, they at least did it. most ASL will end up in another zip code if taken off leash and faced with a stranger waving a stick and making noise. the same for gun shots. if the German dogs were shown in sieger, they had to do this in public, with video or first hand observaitons available and each person can decide if it is acceptable or not. 

it is one thing for folks to make statements from owning a dog they like or from looking at a picture or a few laps around the ring. it is quite another to reason that all is well from no more information than this.

jmo,
Rik

Excellent observations Rik!.....hopefully this can be constructive information to be profited from, as opposed to maligning the poster at the expense of the message.

Pineridge I absolutely agree with you about Capi Cappy or however one wants to spell it. I've aseen it both ways. I do not like him, there were a lot better males then him at the Nationals that Sat--I was there--and before I get flamed I did have his back when I defended the standard before about having 2 resticles. But geez I never thought he would go GV at the Nationals. What in the hell was up with that anyway? You know I know just being flip..................I still think it was way off the wall for him to go GV and he is sterile. Oh and I wanted to add, not sure who was but Jimmie Moses wasn't showing him or anyone else that day. I had seen him earlier and he had on jeans--all casual like-didn't surprise me because I think as a judge you can only show your own dogs now and not for money for other people.

Gustav I remember when you were a basher and said what you did. Believe me those chickens are coming home to roost. I really started liking you more then because you stood up for what you believed regardless of what others said. And I knew you were right cause I say the same things all the time. LOL That sounded sort of strange but I meant it in a good way................

And to the poster that said something about long loved lines. My mentor told me a couple of weeks ago her brother lost a dog a couple of months ago with the same mutt lines we use. How old was she? 17--I know my mentor had told me these lines were long lived and healthy but I had no idea anything like that. Makes me feel a little better every day.

BTW I hear from my puppy people all the time. The worst thing I have heard so far is one of the boy's testicle didn't come down. I can live with that. He was sold as a pet anyway on LTD but I still hate it..............

Coming in late to the party. Haven't been online much.

IMO Capi is a good dog, he's not a great dog and great dogs should always be the GV.  I've seen the dog that came in second to Capi and IMO he's great dog and should have won.  I think there were a number of better dogs entered including the one that Vonissk mentioned. Just my opinion.

I have mixed feelings about the judge's knowing that he is infertile and still giving him that very prestigious award. I think it's more the responsibiilty of a dog's owner/s to not show a dog that is infertile (dysplastic, whatever) than it is the judge's responsibilty to factor that into the equation. Judges should be allowed to assume that breeders/owners only present their best at a NS and their best would not be a dog than cannot reproduce. I wasn't at the NS, but have heard that dead tails are making a comeback - up to 8 of the final bunch of keepers had dead tails. Not good. That is something ASL breeders should be paying attention to again. Still, people who know the breed also know which dogs were deserving of their wins. I think AKC people are less apt to be impressed with show wins than the SV people but most probably pay a lot more attention to them than they should.

I go to a fair number of AKC shows, mostly OB now, but do try to watch the conformation judging and I think about 1/4 of the adults GSD are cowhocked or sickle hocked. When I was at Stateville in the spring, a big entry, I only saw ONE German dog with a pronounced roach in the working class. it was a VERY prononced roach. A few cowhocks and a few sickle hocks there too. I thought bitches were sounder overall than the males - that is true about the ASL bitches too. I think the more the demand for the GSL dogs to move with a big side gait, the more we are going to see, long hocks, sickle hocks, cowhocks.

I really don't fault the judge for his choice, under AKC rules, nothing should be considered other than what is presented on that day.

The dead tails (or more realisticly, surgicaly altered tails) are a different issue. some judges pay no attention and others will fault. Few would show them under Ralph Roberts.  

An AKC/GSDCA show is not, nor is it represented to be, about improving the breed. I think this is where some get a little mixed up. It is a judge's opinion on the dogs presented to him on that day. As far  AKC/GSDCA, there are other programs available to add to the title of champion that give a more rounded look at the individual dog.

Morning Blitzen--very good post and I agree. Not only that dog I like real well, but I saw another very nice male there that I think should have placed higher. And no I don't know his name or even who the handler was--it was a female--  And boy are you ever right about the sickle hocks and all that.

I was going to ask you before what exactly are dead tails and how does that come into play? Is it a genetic thing. I know I was told there were a lot there but I can't comment cause actually I don't know about them. Something else I need to learn.

I will say one thing I saw a few of and was highly disappointed. It is what I call loose dogs. Seems nothing is exactly right about them--they look loose, they move loose sometimes like its almost an effort to move everything together at one time.  One  the owner kept parading around over by where I was sitting--originally in the stands--and it was a black which I guess drew my attention to it more. Man it looked like at any minute it would fall apart. Later I saw it in the BOB ring and it was cut immediately and I was glad to see that. It had a nice coat, nice color, a decent head but from the head to the ass was pitiful. Well after seeing that dog so close up it made me look at other ones and I saw a lot more of that then I would have liked.....................I have no comment on the bitches because one of their family members showed up and they went to eat so I went on back to the room. Puppy was tired and it was raining and cold by that time.
Oh yes and I agree about the owners having some responsibility about the dogs they choose to campaign. I know it was said that dog showing wasn't to choose breeding stock or any of that. But that's what they were originally set up for. Call me old fashioned or old timey but that's how I think it should still be that way. And I know there are people out there that have far more years in the breed then lots of people put together on this board will ever have and hmmmm they agree with me. A lot of people are of the mindset that well it was put up and a CH so it must be breed quality and that's not always so. (as in anything else) Showing is fun in a way, ribbons and certificates are nice, in a way. But for myself, I'm on a different leval. In other words that, along with other things, is not the end all to everything. Our breed must remain a working breed of some type or all is lost. I mean type as in different jobs not different lines. There are dogs in every line that can work just few and far inbetween in some..................

Welcome back Blitzen, wondered where you'd got to ;)

"Dead" tails, Vonissk,  that is a vexed and interesting question -  some GSDs keep their tails
clamped down while gaiting  (I'm talking UK here, basically WGSL).  The 'lower' end [i.e. the
furthest from its root] hanging rather loose.
This means it cannot 'fly' and be carried too high while running.  You can see this also in
German Sieger videos.

Lots of people believe this is [usually / always?] because the tail has at some point been
damaged - or deliberately broken.  To stop it being raised above the line of the back.

However - while there may have been the odd case of this happening, personally I don't think
it is as 'routine' as suggested.  Common sense would dictate you'd need to be very skillful
and very lucky to make a habit of breaking tails in this way and always get the result you 
were after.  Genuinely broken or dislocated tails can set at some funnneee angles.

Let me tell you about Vida - the dog I had before Taz.  She was a good and reasonably
successful showdog before I got my mitts on her and turned her into an Obediance dog and
latterly goose-herd.  She had poor hips so was taken out of the owners breeding program
and retired to me.  I was involved with her from 6mths, so saw her quite a lot in the showring.
She was a good and consistent mover; and she carried her tail clamped down, all the way
around the ring when she was moved.  Not tucked between her legs btw.

I lived with her as a house dog until she was 14.  Believe me, that dog did not have a broken
tail.

Rik - love the notion of letting ASLs run free at Shows!  How would they do at the newer UK
event where they have to gait a lap off lead, d'you think ?

yall ppl know shome Sh*t, yall be sending me 2 google more and more, and i luv it, im learnin a lot THX

hm, dead tails here in the U.S. are almost always the result of muscles being cut to prevent the the "happy tail" being carried over the back. used to be called a "gay" tail, but we can't call it that anymore. not that there's anything wrong with that.

when done poorly, the tail just bounces up and down off the hocks when moving. the same can be done for hooks or curls at the end of the tail. there is one Grand Victor who has been very prolific in passing on a spine issue that also results in dead tails.

as for as off leash gaiting, I think it's a good idea. some dogs here would have no problem with it and some you couldn't catch with a butterfly net if they get loose.

jmo,
Rik

I'm sure we are glad to oblige SupaK; have a nice day.