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by Videx on 03 April 2010 - 18:04
Is Katrina Doble (Dingodog) a friend of Caroline Kisko or Kathryn Symns or both?
Does she wish to undermine our resolve and determination and unity?
Katrina "watch & learn" - The Kennel Club certainly should!
Other breeds certainly are!
Does she wish to undermine our resolve and determination and unity?
Katrina "watch & learn" - The Kennel Club certainly should!
Other breeds certainly are!
by Mark3 on 03 April 2010 - 21:04
‘Quoted in Our Dogs when comparing the registrations of our breed the German Shepherd Dog which they say is in decline they boasted a 15% increase overall for all breeds. These registrations without a doubt are a result of a flawed ABS which assures the general public all is well should you purchase from any breeder who holds an ABS certificate‘.
Member, The scheme was launched in 2004 and I understand in November 2008, there were around 3000 on the ABS, across all breeds. That does not explain a decline of GSD registrations by over 40 per cent in the preceding 15 years to 2008, (Reported in Dogworld). Registrations have declined in Germany too, around 40% from 1998 to 2006 (Source: VDH, (German Kennel Club)
Member, The scheme was launched in 2004 and I understand in November 2008, there were around 3000 on the ABS, across all breeds. That does not explain a decline of GSD registrations by over 40 per cent in the preceding 15 years to 2008, (Reported in Dogworld). Registrations have declined in Germany too, around 40% from 1998 to 2006 (Source: VDH, (German Kennel Club)
by Member on 03 April 2010 - 22:04
Mark3 my reference to the decline in GSD registrations was not the point I was making. It was the INCREASE IN REGISTRATIONS OVERALL I was bringing to the attention of the readers of this thread. I believe boasting of increased registrations when we all know this includes anyone who wants to pay their £15 enrolling fee knowing that the health checks have no minimum requirements will always promote increased registrations for the very reason every dog one wants to breed can be bred from. When you bring in controls which promote mandatory testing with minimum grades suitable for breeding, registrations will show a decline. The 15% increase referred to was quoted by the UK Kennel Club for the UK I am not aware of any other statistics from other countries which may also show a decline similar to those you have quoted for the GSD`s.
by Dingodog on 04 April 2010 - 08:04
Missbeeb
I should have said many, not most. This is based on those breeders I have seen listed as accredited, and also members on 'dog boards' including this one who are or until recently were members. The nature of the scheme and it's requirements would also have attracted those who do test (I believe). My take on it is probably the same take as those who state that the ABS is full of puppy farmers and BYB who don't test - somewhat speculative.
No, I don't doubt that SueB's intention was not to cause harm, but there are others who would take up that baton and be 'happy that any accredited breeder would be damaged by it as a result' - paraphrased. My post was to point out that exactly that damage could result to individuals,who are some of the ones who health test, and therefore to question it's validity in the context of dog welfare generally.
I also made a point that the page suggests that they contact the breed clubs. Now here, what I DO find extraordinary, is that, on the other side of the coin the GSD Leage doesn't even HAVE a designated health page. There is one page on CDRM and on the incentives for breeders page it says:
Both parents must of course be registered either with the Uk kennel club or the WUSV.
Both parents must be hip scored with the total being no greater than 25 for each dog with a maximum of 15 on one hip.
Males must be haemophilia A clear.
If either parent has been breed surveyed / Korung this will be highlighted in your advert.
If you are registered as an accredited breeder with the kennel club this will also be highlighted in your advert.
This would leave an 'unsuspecting public' to believe that the only problems in the GSD are Haemophilia and HD (by the way when did it change to 25? it's always been 19 to my knowledge). I cannot see how recommending a higher hip score can be a good thing, and CDRM. What about elbows, epilepsy, JRD (to please David) AF, PD ............In fact, if someone followed the KC's advice and went to the site they would find the cupboard pretty much bare in terms of health advice.
David .....wrong again. I am not a friend of anyone in the KC, I don't even know anyone in the KC. You really do see alsatianists and spooks lurking in every corner. You really seem to find it hard to accept that I am an individual with an opinion - that's it, and there are plenty of us operating under the general term of 'Joe Public'. I trust that your resolve and unity isn't so fragile that I could undermine it in any way, and I wouldn't want to. With a section breaking away from the KC, I see it as doubling the opportunities to better the health and structure of the GSD. As I said before, only time will tell which will succeed, and that will be interesting to watch over the coming years.
I have been watching an learning for quite some time and will continue to do so, thank you - finally some sensible advice. That advice should be taken on by many others too.
I should have said many, not most. This is based on those breeders I have seen listed as accredited, and also members on 'dog boards' including this one who are or until recently were members. The nature of the scheme and it's requirements would also have attracted those who do test (I believe). My take on it is probably the same take as those who state that the ABS is full of puppy farmers and BYB who don't test - somewhat speculative.
No, I don't doubt that SueB's intention was not to cause harm, but there are others who would take up that baton and be 'happy that any accredited breeder would be damaged by it as a result' - paraphrased. My post was to point out that exactly that damage could result to individuals,who are some of the ones who health test, and therefore to question it's validity in the context of dog welfare generally.
I also made a point that the page suggests that they contact the breed clubs. Now here, what I DO find extraordinary, is that, on the other side of the coin the GSD Leage doesn't even HAVE a designated health page. There is one page on CDRM and on the incentives for breeders page it says:
Both parents must of course be registered either with the Uk kennel club or the WUSV.
Both parents must be hip scored with the total being no greater than 25 for each dog with a maximum of 15 on one hip.
Males must be haemophilia A clear.
If either parent has been breed surveyed / Korung this will be highlighted in your advert.
If you are registered as an accredited breeder with the kennel club this will also be highlighted in your advert.
This would leave an 'unsuspecting public' to believe that the only problems in the GSD are Haemophilia and HD (by the way when did it change to 25? it's always been 19 to my knowledge). I cannot see how recommending a higher hip score can be a good thing, and CDRM. What about elbows, epilepsy, JRD (to please David) AF, PD ............In fact, if someone followed the KC's advice and went to the site they would find the cupboard pretty much bare in terms of health advice.
David .....wrong again. I am not a friend of anyone in the KC, I don't even know anyone in the KC. You really do see alsatianists and spooks lurking in every corner. You really seem to find it hard to accept that I am an individual with an opinion - that's it, and there are plenty of us operating under the general term of 'Joe Public'. I trust that your resolve and unity isn't so fragile that I could undermine it in any way, and I wouldn't want to. With a section breaking away from the KC, I see it as doubling the opportunities to better the health and structure of the GSD. As I said before, only time will tell which will succeed, and that will be interesting to watch over the coming years.
I have been watching an learning for quite some time and will continue to do so, thank you - finally some sensible advice. That advice should be taken on by many others too.
by missbeeb on 04 April 2010 - 09:04
Hmmm... interesting that there's little info on the League's site (I wasn't aware) I never look, I rely on word of mouth, BC mag, year books etc to keep me up to date.
I think we will see changes over the course of this year. I suspect updating the site is the job of one person; being on a committee is not always a breeze, many (most?) have a full time job, their own dogs / kennels etc to manage. It's probably hard to find enough free time to do committee work. I'm not making excuses... more, thinking as I type, having been on a committee for the best part of 10 years, with a full time job and four Shepherds... I wouldn't want to go there again!
by missbeeb on 04 April 2010 - 09:04
...sorry, meant to add that 19 is the breed mean score.
by Archania on 04 April 2010 - 10:04
Ok, i will give a simple but reasonable true account of this scheme.
I have been looking for a puppy, not just any puppy, as i had ideas on what breeding i wanted to see in the pedigree.
I look at lots of lovely breeders of pretty GSD puppies, from various sources some reasonably priced, others overpriced, a lot have the ABS certification.
I call or send emails to these breeders who have litters, or ones on the way asking for full pedigrees of the dam and sire - now im lucky, i know a little of what to look for.
Do you know what i got ?
Excuses, from we dont send out pedigrees until you buy a dog. Excuses on sending verification scans of Hip scores if i wanted to request them. What i did get was a whole load of excellent pedigree, with waffle about its grandparent won this or that, that the mothers hips were 0.0, but she was a pet dog, that i won't be disapointed, beautiful big bones....and that they were KC accredited breeders.......
These are the so called Accredited breeders that are selling to joe bloggs public, which is me.
So i did a bit more research, i found out what this scheme is, it's a piece of paper, it doesn't really stand for anything and is no guarentee that im going to get a nice healthy puppy, who will be my freind and companion for the next 10+ years. They may have hip scores, but those hip scores could be 106 and the KC won't stop them breeding.
I would be just as well purchasing a GSD crossbred puppy from joe bloggs whose dog got out in season.
Simply, this scheme doesn't stand for anything, yes like with all things there are breeders who stick to common sense, but there are also those that don't.
Im very happy to say, i found a breeder, it took me about 5 months, but i found one, and in the end i did turn to *Germanic* rather than *Alsation*, if we need to allocate types not for the look of the dog, but the years of health screening that came with it.
Edited for missing words !
I have been looking for a puppy, not just any puppy, as i had ideas on what breeding i wanted to see in the pedigree.
I look at lots of lovely breeders of pretty GSD puppies, from various sources some reasonably priced, others overpriced, a lot have the ABS certification.
I call or send emails to these breeders who have litters, or ones on the way asking for full pedigrees of the dam and sire - now im lucky, i know a little of what to look for.
Do you know what i got ?
Excuses, from we dont send out pedigrees until you buy a dog. Excuses on sending verification scans of Hip scores if i wanted to request them. What i did get was a whole load of excellent pedigree, with waffle about its grandparent won this or that, that the mothers hips were 0.0, but she was a pet dog, that i won't be disapointed, beautiful big bones....and that they were KC accredited breeders.......
These are the so called Accredited breeders that are selling to joe bloggs public, which is me.
So i did a bit more research, i found out what this scheme is, it's a piece of paper, it doesn't really stand for anything and is no guarentee that im going to get a nice healthy puppy, who will be my freind and companion for the next 10+ years. They may have hip scores, but those hip scores could be 106 and the KC won't stop them breeding.
I would be just as well purchasing a GSD crossbred puppy from joe bloggs whose dog got out in season.
Simply, this scheme doesn't stand for anything, yes like with all things there are breeders who stick to common sense, but there are also those that don't.
Im very happy to say, i found a breeder, it took me about 5 months, but i found one, and in the end i did turn to *Germanic* rather than *Alsation*, if we need to allocate types not for the look of the dog, but the years of health screening that came with it.
Edited for missing words !
by Mark3 on 04 April 2010 - 12:04
Member, we are talking about the ABS here, across all breeds, a voluntary scheme, there are many, many not on it. I know that the scheme in its current form is insufficient and I know it has a long way to go. Say you bring in controls on the ABS which promote mandatory testing with minimum grades suitable for breeding, registrations may not necessarily show a decline. All breeders have to do is come of the scheme and carry on breeding and their litters will still be registered; people do not have to be on the ABS to breed in this country.
I suppose you have recognised that mandatory parameters on health testing will remove more dogs from the gene pool leaving fewer dogs available to be bred, which most likely will end up being used more and more often, accumulating in tight line breeding and bottlenecking. What parameters would you put in place to prevent other less common genetic health issues (where there is currently no test available) becoming more common place, thus ultimately improving the overall genetic health in pedigree dogs. There are no restrictions on the number of times a sire can be used; there are no restrictions on the number of breeders per breed, and there is nothing stopping people breeding, KC registered or not. There are breeds out there with very little bloodlines left (That is not to say I am against mandatory health testing, far from it, but there are other factors to consider too)
That is one fundamental issue in all of this that not one person has mentioned, and it’s something that I don’t see discussed on here often, (there are some old threads way back), but it is very much a key factor in the Bateson report on pedigree dog health, and that is the existence of highly in bred populations, which pose a welfare burden in and of itself.
I suppose you have recognised that mandatory parameters on health testing will remove more dogs from the gene pool leaving fewer dogs available to be bred, which most likely will end up being used more and more often, accumulating in tight line breeding and bottlenecking. What parameters would you put in place to prevent other less common genetic health issues (where there is currently no test available) becoming more common place, thus ultimately improving the overall genetic health in pedigree dogs. There are no restrictions on the number of times a sire can be used; there are no restrictions on the number of breeders per breed, and there is nothing stopping people breeding, KC registered or not. There are breeds out there with very little bloodlines left (That is not to say I am against mandatory health testing, far from it, but there are other factors to consider too)
That is one fundamental issue in all of this that not one person has mentioned, and it’s something that I don’t see discussed on here often, (there are some old threads way back), but it is very much a key factor in the Bateson report on pedigree dog health, and that is the existence of highly in bred populations, which pose a welfare burden in and of itself.
by Member on 04 April 2010 - 14:04
In it`s current form the UK Kennel Club ABS misleads the general public who believe the scheme is a guarantee of a healthy dog. Archania on this thread gives a good account of their experience of which my wife and I hear very often when people inquire about puppies. The scheme is flawed,the genuine people who do all the checks and care and who have signed up as ABS breeders are let down by the Kennel Club who themselves do not have a minimum requirement of it`s heath checks . I still say but cannot prove otherwise if we had mandatory minimum requirements with a ABS scheme you would see registrations reduce. With regards to bloodlines and bottlenecks, I am sure that to make progress in our breed the registrations from ABS puppy farmers and uniformed pet owners who use the scheme in it`s current form would have little effect on the breeds future development here in the UK. My main concern is the unsuspecting general public looking for a healthy puppy. I am also happy to sign off with my name so people can judge me by my convictions of trying to promote the Breed in it`s best interest.
John Ward ( Belezra GSD)
John Ward ( Belezra GSD)
by Archania on 04 April 2010 - 15:04
Its a complete waste of paper.
I could quite happily and without restriction from anyone, get myself a bitch, have it hip scored, lets say it comes out at 30:28, send that off to the kennel club.
I then sign whatever declaration i need to sign from the KC to join the scheme. Then wait for my bitch to come into season. i could look on fish4dogs or whatever it's called for a nice manky stud dog, with an equally manky hip score, have a boat load of manky puppies and then register them and sell them for a few hundred a pop, churning a few litters out a year.
When that bitch gets a bit past it, i will keep one as my future blood money, and get the other one put to sleep - that's what happens....
I wont worry about the fact i wont make any money, cus im not going to be giving my bitch the best of everything, a tin of cheapo dog food a day will do, and i will kick the puppies out at 6/7 weeks because they eat too much, so theres plenty of spare dosh left over. I won't be vetting homes, i don't really care what happens to these poor animals as long as there is cash in my pocket.
"Did you know that the grandmother of these puppies won at an open show ? oh yes she did, BOB winner she was...lovely big boned puppies they will be, hip scores, oh yes all done and registered with the KC, everything is fine, im an accredited breeder....."
Who is there to stop me ?
It certainly wouldn't be the Kennel Club, and there so called scheme.
It's Sick. Totally Sick, and it breaks my heart it happens but it does.
I could quite happily and without restriction from anyone, get myself a bitch, have it hip scored, lets say it comes out at 30:28, send that off to the kennel club.
I then sign whatever declaration i need to sign from the KC to join the scheme. Then wait for my bitch to come into season. i could look on fish4dogs or whatever it's called for a nice manky stud dog, with an equally manky hip score, have a boat load of manky puppies and then register them and sell them for a few hundred a pop, churning a few litters out a year.
When that bitch gets a bit past it, i will keep one as my future blood money, and get the other one put to sleep - that's what happens....
I wont worry about the fact i wont make any money, cus im not going to be giving my bitch the best of everything, a tin of cheapo dog food a day will do, and i will kick the puppies out at 6/7 weeks because they eat too much, so theres plenty of spare dosh left over. I won't be vetting homes, i don't really care what happens to these poor animals as long as there is cash in my pocket.
"Did you know that the grandmother of these puppies won at an open show ? oh yes she did, BOB winner she was...lovely big boned puppies they will be, hip scores, oh yes all done and registered with the KC, everything is fine, im an accredited breeder....."
Who is there to stop me ?
It certainly wouldn't be the Kennel Club, and there so called scheme.
It's Sick. Totally Sick, and it breaks my heart it happens but it does.
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