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by Penny on 07 July 2010 - 17:07
another little Gem from Bill - he has to be convinced that Breed Surveys are a good thing - OMG !!!!
Dear Mathew
Your first proposition is quite wrong and you should address this to the shows department. The KC could not withhold a title providing it was awarded within the rules. The Judges have all signed to say that in their opinion the dog is worthy of the title.
I am yet to be convinced of the value of breed surveys but I am hoping to be invited to observe surveys being carried out at sometime in the near future.
Regards
Bill Lambert
Health & Breeder Services Manager
Tel: Direct Line 020 7518 1068
Fax: 020 7518 1028
Dear Mathew
Your first proposition is quite wrong and you should address this to the shows department. The KC could not withhold a title providing it was awarded within the rules. The Judges have all signed to say that in their opinion the dog is worthy of the title.
I am yet to be convinced of the value of breed surveys but I am hoping to be invited to observe surveys being carried out at sometime in the near future.
Regards
Bill Lambert
Health & Breeder Services Manager
Tel: Direct Line 020 7518 1068
Fax: 020 7518 1028
by Videx on 07 July 2010 - 18:07
The Kennel Club - SIMPLY A REGISTRATION ORGANISATION
OUR BREEDS FUTURE CAN ONLY BE HAMPERED BY THE KENNEL CLUB
Bill Lambert - simply protecting his job with the Kennel Club
by trac123 on 07 July 2010 - 19:07
Breed surveys are not 100% - far from it. I have seen one GSD male back off several judges at shows (one gave him 4, yes 4 chances) but he passed his breed survey class 1 - he was surveyed with one of his kennel mates so presumably he was distracted long enough to 'pass'.
As for hip scoring and the K C, they help run the scheme and the scores are there for all to see, yes, I agree that a poor result should exclude them from the champion title but that would have to apply to all breeds (otherwise GSD owners would moan if it didn't!) difficult!
As for hip scoring and the K C, they help run the scheme and the scores are there for all to see, yes, I agree that a poor result should exclude them from the champion title but that would have to apply to all breeds (otherwise GSD owners would moan if it didn't!) difficult!
by Abby Normal on 07 July 2010 - 20:07
I think that there is some truth to the fact that breed surveys are not 100%, at least while they are not applied rigorously, as seems to happen sometimes. I see little point in castigating the KC for an SV style requirement, they are, as we know chalk and cheese.
However, I do not understand why the KC cannot implement the most simple method of ensuring this doesn't happen - production of HD AND ED scores in paper form provided to the steward prior to entry to the ring, together with a microchip/tattoo confirmation at the same time. Entries would not be allowed to compete without fulfilling these minimum requirements. It would require that any dog entered must be identified by tattoo or microchip - a minimal burden on the exhibitor. It would require so little additional effort, and it is fully checkable, should there be any accusation of 'ringing'.
Again though, as previous poster said, this would have to apply to all breeds, but I cann't see a problem with that.
However, I do not understand why the KC cannot implement the most simple method of ensuring this doesn't happen - production of HD AND ED scores in paper form provided to the steward prior to entry to the ring, together with a microchip/tattoo confirmation at the same time. Entries would not be allowed to compete without fulfilling these minimum requirements. It would require that any dog entered must be identified by tattoo or microchip - a minimal burden on the exhibitor. It would require so little additional effort, and it is fully checkable, should there be any accusation of 'ringing'.
Again though, as previous poster said, this would have to apply to all breeds, but I cann't see a problem with that.
by Dex on 07 July 2010 - 21:07
I agree Abby Normal, your idea does sound like a good way forward in at least controlling the problem. In this particular instance I agree with the gentleman that has been writing in about his concern on how a dog with such a high hip score can win a championship. To win something at that level I do believe it requires health to be taken into account. The trouble is, I guess, if a judge cannot see it then they cannot mark against it, but, like you say, if there is a contributing piece of paper with the minimum checks you state, then people will know that the champion is at least a wonderful specimen, in looks, movement and health. Indeed, to reach championship level, I agree that you would need to apply the checks across all breeds - a positive from what I can tell, for a lot of breeds. Would it be feasible to have basic, different, health checks depending on the breed? as not all breeds are predisposed to hip/elbow dysplasia (and it would place undue costs on breeders having to hip score a breed purely for show when that breed does not traditionally suffer from high hip scores), that way breeds with overriding health issues are measured in that particular aspect? All starts to get a bit complex I guess, but with the amount of slating GSDs are getting it can only help to have something in place like you mention Abby Normal.
by missbeeb on 07 July 2010 - 21:07
These checks / restrictions are now implemented re our Regional Events... we're no longer waiting for the KC to move ahead.
by Videx on 07 July 2010 - 22:07
exactly what in pedigree dogs is100%????????????????
KC crap is tolerated by far too many.
Then those that tolerate the KC crap, then question the Breed Survey - brain dead or what?
KC crap is tolerated by far too many.
Then those that tolerate the KC crap, then question the Breed Survey - brain dead or what?
by Trotters123 on 08 July 2010 - 00:07
I do dispair. I weep for the GSD and other breeds who need the KC registration system for 'other things' but I cannot believe that they are so concerned about bringing in money compared to helping Breed Societies protect the breed they are guardians of. It almost seems they deliberatly go out of their way to hamper.
I do remember the 'old days' of the KC where, yes, there was some concern shown but now it is just little boys who have come out of business school pulling the strings with no idea about dogs. I do however think there are some within the KC who still have the welfare of dogs at heart but are bullied, coerced or threatened into doing or saying what they do.
I was shocked to see Bill Lamberts replies concidering he is at the forefront of the ABS and they SHOUT about health tested animals. A bit of a back slide there!!!
I am really quite upset by it all and feel that the GSD I used to know is almost becoming a target of the KC or any other organisations lies and mis truths for the public.
A very disheartened FRANK
I do remember the 'old days' of the KC where, yes, there was some concern shown but now it is just little boys who have come out of business school pulling the strings with no idea about dogs. I do however think there are some within the KC who still have the welfare of dogs at heart but are bullied, coerced or threatened into doing or saying what they do.
I was shocked to see Bill Lamberts replies concidering he is at the forefront of the ABS and they SHOUT about health tested animals. A bit of a back slide there!!!
I am really quite upset by it all and feel that the GSD I used to know is almost becoming a target of the KC or any other organisations lies and mis truths for the public.
A very disheartened FRANK
by Videx on 08 July 2010 - 05:07
The Kennel Club turn a "blind eye" to all of these very serious issues at CRUFTS
CRUFTS the KC dog show
Lest we forget.......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USZxR41GQR4 (with sound)
The Kennel Club is a disgrace when it comes to meaningful policies for pedigree dog
"HEALTH & WELFARE"
They "SPIN" out excuses that are so uncaring.
ALL Judges MUST totally disregard anything NOT visible in the Show Ring
While the Kennel Club
EXCLUDE
hip scores and other serious health screening test results
from their KC Show ENTRY CONDITIONS
A DISGRACE
by mikadene on 08 July 2010 - 12:07
Hi ,
My view for what it is worth. I aggree the KC's reply s somewhat weak in it's reply. Yes it is very hard to take a reward from a dog unless there is overwhelming evedence to suggest the dog is not worthy. The judge has to have this imformation to hand befor he makes the decition who he/she is going to put up. At present rules must be changed to enable the judge to know what dog is in front of him . This at present supposedly is not allowed but most judges know dogs on the circuit. They can't even see the schedule of what dogs are present. So the KC should have the right to strip the KC from a dog but and this is the baddy, There has to be a complaint from an exhibitor that was shown in the same ring and at the time of the show ,to the Secretary of the show with the cash attached. Then the KC can give the reward to the Res CC winner. At the moment there is nothing in the red book that states a bad hip score is a disqualifying fault. There needs to be a KC rule made for such an event. So without a rule the dog has every right to accept the title. As I have said judges should not know who is coming before him in the ring and I fear that if the judge has to check all the hip scores and go over them and check for the id chip then shows will last twice as long as they do now. I am going to be in trouble as all my dogs id are just id'd as penny and rover, and diesel there pet names. This is going to cause more work by re-registering them with their Pedigree name. Id scanners will have to be bought for every breed and all the stewards or judges will have to be trained to use the scanner (More Money). It is a logistical nighmare but it is duable in my opinion. I would like to keep the judge away from knowing the animals names, or any scores that might sway his decision one way or another. So my friend the KC 's hands are tied at the moment and they should have explained clearly why they couldn't strip the award at present. HD scores are not a disqualifying fault. as long as the dog moves ok then the dog is open to compeat. If I owned that dog and the KC had stripped me of the title then the KC would be before the courts and be sued for Thousands for defimation and personal mental injury . Just talking about this dog and nameing it is evedence for the courts because what we are doing is trying to prevent a dog ever winning again, when there is no rule it has broken.
Even though I may aggree with what has been put on this forum we have to be carefull what we put down in writing, some people have been sued and lost and payed quite allot of money.
May I suggest someone suggest's to the KC rule changes be made at their next general meeting or lobby a KC member that may think your way. Best of luck
Mike
P.S It doesn't help slagging off the KC and members in any way
My view for what it is worth. I aggree the KC's reply s somewhat weak in it's reply. Yes it is very hard to take a reward from a dog unless there is overwhelming evedence to suggest the dog is not worthy. The judge has to have this imformation to hand befor he makes the decition who he/she is going to put up. At present rules must be changed to enable the judge to know what dog is in front of him . This at present supposedly is not allowed but most judges know dogs on the circuit. They can't even see the schedule of what dogs are present. So the KC should have the right to strip the KC from a dog but and this is the baddy, There has to be a complaint from an exhibitor that was shown in the same ring and at the time of the show ,to the Secretary of the show with the cash attached. Then the KC can give the reward to the Res CC winner. At the moment there is nothing in the red book that states a bad hip score is a disqualifying fault. There needs to be a KC rule made for such an event. So without a rule the dog has every right to accept the title. As I have said judges should not know who is coming before him in the ring and I fear that if the judge has to check all the hip scores and go over them and check for the id chip then shows will last twice as long as they do now. I am going to be in trouble as all my dogs id are just id'd as penny and rover, and diesel there pet names. This is going to cause more work by re-registering them with their Pedigree name. Id scanners will have to be bought for every breed and all the stewards or judges will have to be trained to use the scanner (More Money). It is a logistical nighmare but it is duable in my opinion. I would like to keep the judge away from knowing the animals names, or any scores that might sway his decision one way or another. So my friend the KC 's hands are tied at the moment and they should have explained clearly why they couldn't strip the award at present. HD scores are not a disqualifying fault. as long as the dog moves ok then the dog is open to compeat. If I owned that dog and the KC had stripped me of the title then the KC would be before the courts and be sued for Thousands for defimation and personal mental injury . Just talking about this dog and nameing it is evedence for the courts because what we are doing is trying to prevent a dog ever winning again, when there is no rule it has broken.
Even though I may aggree with what has been put on this forum we have to be carefull what we put down in writing, some people have been sued and lost and payed quite allot of money.
May I suggest someone suggest's to the KC rule changes be made at their next general meeting or lobby a KC member that may think your way. Best of luck
Mike
P.S It doesn't help slagging off the KC and members in any way
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