Is it not possible to have an intelligent, fact based discussion ........... - Page 3

Me either xD  But that's my dog and while I'm learning, and shoulders are STILL the hardest for me to see, I know that my dog's front is not good (well, his pasterns don't suck xD) :p

But his temperament is fab and he gets me where I need to go :D

Xeph, the shoulder is the very hardest thing for me to learn. I do not have the eye to reliably recognize a good shoulder in movement. 

This is not a fallacy as I also was a very poor hitter of the "fast" ball in little league sports. This is a genetic trait that some have and some not. Many top hitters say they can actually see the threads on the ball, I could not even see the ball. So I have to work very hard to recognize a good shoulder.

So to this day, if I consider a dog, I will get it on video and run it in slow motion to see the opening. Or ask assistance from some one I know who has this talent. This is what I did with the pup in my avatar.

Rik 

You're not the only one.

I run my dogs SEVERAL times while somebody else video tapes, and then when we're done, I watch EACH video...frame by freakin frame to see the shoulder opening and to evaluate the speed my dog needs to go at to show.  I look for lifting and/or kicking up, and it is attributed to speed or structure.

My bitch can be a little lifty, but part of that is speed.  If she goes to fast and throws herself into a tight line, I'm inadvertently holding her up and back, and so she flails in the front.  If I let her go and go loose, she looks MUCH better.

Strauss doesn't look good gaiting no matter what, LOL, poor bugger.

http://www.fredlanting.org/2008/10/front-and-rear-angulation-in-the-working-dog-2/

An excellent article by Fred Lanting on both fore and hind angulation and structure. Fred presented this same material at a seminar I attended last summer, and actually drew chalk lines on a dog's shoulder to show where the bones were and how to measure the angle. 

(I'll confess I still need to study this article more carefully to fully understand the angulation and mechanics.)

And yes, it's hard to judge anything faster than a walk properly without being able to look at it in slow-motion, unless you've got really superb eyesight.

As for what I do with my dogs, I started Star in pre-agility last year, but was not able to advance to the 'real thing' this year, once she turned two, as I injured my back during the winter, and still have a partially numb foot and ankle, which means running is out of the question. I've already had sugery on that ankle twice for tendon injuries, and can't afford to take risks with it.

So, I'm currently training both my dogs in tracking and obedience.  I also trained my male rescue as a Hearing Ear service dog, so he needs the occasional refresher to make sure his skills are up to snuff.

I'm just getting started in the working-line GSD world (or any GSD world, for that matter), but I've been doing my homework for the past three years researching kennels, genetic issues, etc...dog nutrition. So, in terms of titling, I'm just getting started. I'd like to get a BH on my dog at least, but we're a ways away from that since I got him in April and he's never really been worked with. Only knew "sit" at nearly 2 years of age. Which is a good thing, in a way.

Also, in terms of titling, I'm (not - edit) really concerned so much with getting the titles themselves as I am with the process of getting there. I would rather train my dogs than do anything else. I'd rather work my dog than go to the beach, Paris, whatever.

I try to stay away from discussions I don't know anything about. I do know a lot about training/managing weak nerved and fearful dogs...my collie is really something else. I've had her for about 2 and a half years. The most I will ever be able to get with her is a CGC. I used to laugh at people who were proud of the CGC title. It seems so easy...until you have a dog like Molly.

And poop. God, do I know about poop.

OK CALL MENEEDY.. is there any way that I can get comparison of bad shoulders and pretty ggod shouldes next to each other?
xeph already volunteered the bad ones.. or not that good ones, Does somebody have good ones? I will put them side by side and stare.. cause I have to learn. I makes me understand what the show peeps constanlty talk about. I have pretty good understanding about the top line, the back and so on. My friend gave me nice run down and many dogs to look at. I never new about shoulders.
I know also a little bit about the legs, and paws East, west and so on..
For people in business I have to sound like I just arrived from the planet of Mars
Pack

Good front:

Xeph. is that sable dog anyway related to Ch. Alvin or his sire Jake?

Nope, he is not!  I would not touch Alvin or Jake with a 10 foot pole!  The only thing they have in common is that they are both (Jake and Justin) linebred on Sundance Kid

Jake is linebred 4-4
Justin is line bred 5-5,5

Thank you
Pack