Is it not possible to have an intelligent, fact based discussion ........... - Page 5

xeph, you give an opinion on the shoulder, and then you give your reason for that opinion. Whether I agree or disagree, at least you supply the reason you have that opinion. 

Many here make very stupid comments concerning things they have no experience with. 

Such as:
1. "All German S/L dogs have roach back. If not evident standing, then moving". This from people who have never and in all probability will never go to Germany. I saw very many beautiful toplines there, in fact the majority. I also invite opinion from what others see there and point out to me if I am incorrect. 
 
2. "All W/L dogs are ugly". At the CIPWDA show in Peoria recently, I keep seeing a very obvious working male. This dog is so beautiful and typey, that every time he goes by, I can't take my eyes off him. I even moved closer to where the owners are sitting to "study" him. Can he work, I don't know, but he is very beautiful.

3. "All Am. S.L dogs are junk". I also do not agree. I do agree many are, but I also know of very nice dogs with good character.

Of the people here who I have have no issue pointing out and asking them to back up their comments with some kind of experience, I have included you, but I will say this concerning you.

You have chosen the Am. S/L. I respect that deciscion.  I do not have to agree with it.

From the time several months ago when I first notice your posts, you show the ability to progress in your choice as well as upgrade your animals. This requires some talent as well as a desire to stick with something.

Did you buy your recent bitch, or did someone, some where recognize this desire/talent and place her with you.

Rik

 Just my two cents :))

I agree with Rik on your dog Xeph..He has a nice front but the upper arm should be longer..

Here's one of my bitch who I think has a very good shoulder (she has other faults..too long and could have a better croup that would give her more propulsion in the rear)



And here's one of her puppy (5 months) on the move by himself..he is now in a family...testicules didn't show up!!  Please no comment about the ears..they are now perfect an I had to tape them for 2 weeks (wide and thick didn't want to take the chance!)



I'll be back later to continue enjoying this discussion..see you.

Best

Julie

july, my 2 cents on your bitch. She has very nice type, and is a very attractive bitch.  She is not typical of many Am. S/L dogs today. Good color, good bone. beautiful head with strength and still feminie. Not leggy at all. A little streched maybe but still over all a beautiful animal. 

How about giving a little hint on her breeding, please.

Rik

While the above discussion is interesting I have one bring problem with it. Pictures may or may not really represent the dog. Some take great pictures, some rotten. The angle the picture is taken at ( should be aimed at the shoulder at shoulder height) can radically change what the dog looks like as can the lighting and how the dog is stacked or not etc etc.

I would suggest that instead of looking at pictures on the web, if you really want to learn about structure and motion, take yourself to every dog event you can possible get to. Not just breed shows tho they are important ( as much for learning what tricks handler's use to hide faults and emphasis virtues as for watching as many dogs as you can) but herding trials ( great for watching the dog move in the venue that created the motion), obedience, agility, flyball, tracking and Schutzhund trials. Watch how dogs move in all those venues and why strong upright pasterns are necessary and why excessive length of stifle interferes with working ability probably more than a steep upright shoulder. That's not to say I forgive an incorrect shoulder, I don't. I'm from the old school that a correct shoulder is very important and the easiest thing to lose and the hardest to get back. I think most people in the breed today have never seen a truly correct front reach. All too often you see these dogs doing "hiel hitler" with their front and people are oohing and ahing as fi the dog had the greatest front assembly.

When you are watching dogs move don't just observe the trot. What them walk. Old time judges (often hated because of this) would walk the dogs then trot then walk often walking more than trotting because defects in gait especially in front structure will show up quicker doing this. A dog with an incorrect front will start to "pound" even at a walk (coming straight down and hard on the front). Also observe which dogs switch into pacing ( a fatigue gait) and why - what about their structure causes that. Watch your own dogs when they are running and playing - how do their bodies work - at what speed do they look their best and why.

For study you may want to find copies of the SV film made of Dingo vom Haus Gero. He was free gaiting next to a truck as they filmed him and at one point they stereospically ( sp) backed off and imposed a skeleton over his structure as he moved. Great moving dog, great film, great learning tool. I was at a GSDca local club many years ago where this was shown and most of the attendees where so into "being right" w/ their chosen lines that they could not even acknowledge the beauty of this dog and his movement and complete dissed him as a pos. So be careful from whom you learn.

Here you go, Beth: Dingo vom Haus Gero!
www.youtube.com/watch

Also see if you can find copies of the film and pictures of the Hessian dogs from the sixties. I don't know if they have been lost to the mists of time, but the owner ( Art Hess?) used a very unique camera anfd filming techniques which really allowed movement to be seen. Perhaps someone can see if the GSDCA has these hidden in the back reaches of their library - or perhaps the AKC museum.

And while I know it is hard to learn to dissect movement in the flesh, it can be learned even if you do not have a natural eye for it. Practice, Practice, Practice. And when you are lucky enough to come across that rare dog, that has balance and drive and reach, a correct front and most importantly suspension (an ingredient almost totally missing today) your brain will never forget that image.

Shortly after I got my first GSD in the early 60s, I saw a GSD at a local all breed show ( specialties back then were few and far between) that left that image in my mind. He was Best in Show Champion Elch vom Haus Obert ( yes a German import - not uncommon in those days) handled I believe by Ernie Lobe if memory serves right. A medium size very correct dog who today would be critized for not be stallion like. This was a winter show in an old auditorium with slippery wood floors with inadequate matting. But for BIS they opened up a big ring and the dog just FLOATED around it. It was as if he was supported on a cushion of air. From this dog I learned about true suspension, correct fronts and balance.  

Elch unfortunately was not promoted as a stud dog. he was owned by a Dr and his wife who enjoyed having him shown but they were not breeders  so his line was lost tho his father Arras and half brother Klodo Eritmentklause (sp) are found behind many dogs today - more working but some hiline.

The advert for this collectible says it came from a book but I believe it was actually in Dog World where he was chosen to be the visualization of the standard. http://www.tias.com/6298/PictPage/1922440642.html

Finally there is one more reason to be observing dogs not photos. Every dog breed in the world is judged in a two step process, stacked and in motion. There is a reason for that. Movement is not mere physical or skeletal structure. Movement is structure and muscles and ligamentation and the serendipity of how they all work together. It is also about heart and mind and drive and attitude ( especially suspension).

You can have a dog that has all the perfectly correct angles but lacks the muscles and or ligamentation ( too tight or too loose) to use them correctly.  I have seen beautiful beautiful animals stacked and when they started to move you just had to wonder about what strange alchemy held them together as you watched them knit and purl and hock walk or move with locked hocks etc etc. In the eighties the German dogs were just the opposite. Again while perhaps having correct bone structure the ligimentation was so tight that it restricted their movement and was painful to watch ( and some of the roach back ones where the worst - I've always been convinced that tight ligmentation is an element in the roach)

The other side of this is you will see dogs that do not seem to present with a great physical structure but when they move - your breath is taken away. Somehow they are transformed. Often this comes from one of two things or both together. While the structure itself is merely adequate, they have and use to it's fullest extent good musculature and ligamentation and/or as noted above movement can be about heart and mind and attitude.

So yes looking at drawings and photos is useful in learning but the better education is out in the field watching the dogs move. 

I would suggest you look for copies of the Orrie Nordress edition of the illustrated standard and Rachael ? book called I believe Dog Steps which is about dogs structure in motion.