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by Gustav on 29 April 2011 - 12:04
Tarakiwa,
Of course this happens and too a much larger degree than is exposed. Knowledgable dog people know this and the enablers often pooh pooh it. Jantie has brought these issues to the board before but was overrun by many that are in bed with these actions. It is about money....period! Another thing that is important is IMPACT. Often you hear breeders of these dogs make the statement,(after seeing irrefutable evidence at Seigers shows), "Yeah, but these type of dogs are only the VA dogs and a V dog lower in the ratings has good structure and working aptitude. That sounds good until you consider that the lower "V" dog will never have the impact in producing dogs that the VA dogs at Seiger shows will. All of these international people want dogs out of name recognition dogs that were VA and status symbols. So these dogs get bred and sold and bred out of the wazoo and bring many many more progeny into the world with these same character deficiencies, why the "Low V " dog is lucky to get 4 or 5 breedings outside their own kennel. Do this for twenty-five years and you begin to understand how these statements of the good working low V dog owners will not have a significant impact on correcting the problem and in fact the much more used "top" dogs that are lacking in good working strength will have a greater impact thus making the situation worse every year. You can dislike me, you can dislike what I say, but you cannot refute the state of these dogs today in GENERAL, and as long as money and ignorance is at high levels in" this " world, there will be descrepancies in these lines in prices and working ability.
Of course this happens and too a much larger degree than is exposed. Knowledgable dog people know this and the enablers often pooh pooh it. Jantie has brought these issues to the board before but was overrun by many that are in bed with these actions. It is about money....period! Another thing that is important is IMPACT. Often you hear breeders of these dogs make the statement,(after seeing irrefutable evidence at Seigers shows), "Yeah, but these type of dogs are only the VA dogs and a V dog lower in the ratings has good structure and working aptitude. That sounds good until you consider that the lower "V" dog will never have the impact in producing dogs that the VA dogs at Seiger shows will. All of these international people want dogs out of name recognition dogs that were VA and status symbols. So these dogs get bred and sold and bred out of the wazoo and bring many many more progeny into the world with these same character deficiencies, why the "Low V " dog is lucky to get 4 or 5 breedings outside their own kennel. Do this for twenty-five years and you begin to understand how these statements of the good working low V dog owners will not have a significant impact on correcting the problem and in fact the much more used "top" dogs that are lacking in good working strength will have a greater impact thus making the situation worse every year. You can dislike me, you can dislike what I say, but you cannot refute the state of these dogs today in GENERAL, and as long as money and ignorance is at high levels in" this " world, there will be descrepancies in these lines in prices and working ability.
by Tarakiwa on 29 April 2011 - 14:04
Well said Gustav !! totally agree.
by HighDesertGSD on 29 April 2011 - 16:04
"I do agree that people have the right to choose a dog with less drive, but not to purposely breed so they have so little drive the dog is happy as a couch potato or lawn ornament"
I doubt if you can fine very many GSDs of any line that are couch potato or lawn ornament.
Even my American SL girl, especially the mom, will go thru a lot of comotion with the slightest sign.
My American SL girl charged at a neighbor, from the middle of the yard toward a double glass door, who unwisely playfully reached for my head and hair.
I doubt if you can fine very many GSDs of any line that are couch potato or lawn ornament.
Even my American SL girl, especially the mom, will go thru a lot of comotion with the slightest sign.
My American SL girl charged at a neighbor, from the middle of the yard toward a double glass door, who unwisely playfully reached for my head and hair.
by VonIsengard on 29 April 2011 - 17:04
I'm coming in to this quite late because frankly, I have little time for this board at the moment. Training weather is here.
I'm going to start with the original question. There is not just one answer.
Let's start with the obvious. The market for these dogs is higher and people will pay more for them. Naturally, some breeders will "cash in" in this. Some breeders have cashed in so high they have badly skewed the market for showline GSDs. When three breeders within an hour of me are selling their puppies from titled, surveryed, import line parents for $2500-$4500 (that is NOT a joke, it happens around here), they are going to mess up the market for all the small time breeders. Dogs that were previously sold in the newspaper for $500 are now $1000. So, what does the small breeder do? Continue to sell their puppies for a $1000 and place their puppies in a martket of significantly lower quality dogs? Puppies from titled grandparents ONLY around here run about $1200. Many breeders shift their price to $1500-2000, which still stays comfortably below the ridiculously priced breeder. As long you are ethical, breeding sound, healthy dogs that adhere to the standard, you stand behind your contracts to protect both your buyer and your dogs, and your buyers are comfortable with the price, who exactly are you hurting?
Second, the average showline dog is suitable for a wider range of environments than the average working line. Argue with me all you want. It doesn't change the truth. I know every workingline person will tell me what great house dogs their working lines are. Of course they are! For YOU. You are DOG PEOPLE. You know how to train, lead and control a high drive dog. So many people do not. Most reputable workingline breeders I know don't WANT to sell their drivey pups into pet homes, they want to put them into working homes. They will bring a price down, heavily, to draw in serious workinghomes.
Most workingline breeders DO title their own dogs, many showline breeders do not. This drastically changes the overhead for the breeder. The stud fees for some showline dogs are higher as well.
Are some showline breeders crooks? Oh, HELL YES. I've lost track of how many very pretty dogs I know with bad joints, gasto issues, etc that people paid a fortune for. But I also know of very extreme, handler hard, high aggression working lines sold to people who just wanted a pet and got in way over their heads by breeder who said "oh sure, they make great pets". BOTH breeders are frauds in my book. Dirty salepeople and liars don't just breed black and red dogs.
A final word before I spend the remainder of my day with my wonderful new husband:
If you are breeding dogs of structural and mental correctness, dogs who are healthy, if your breeding dogs have honestly earned a working title/certification, if you stand behind the guarantee you promise your buyers, if you are honest with your buyers about the type of dog you breed and what they are buying...you are doing the breed no harm.
There is room for more than one correct type in this breed.
I'm going to start with the original question. There is not just one answer.
Let's start with the obvious. The market for these dogs is higher and people will pay more for them. Naturally, some breeders will "cash in" in this. Some breeders have cashed in so high they have badly skewed the market for showline GSDs. When three breeders within an hour of me are selling their puppies from titled, surveryed, import line parents for $2500-$4500 (that is NOT a joke, it happens around here), they are going to mess up the market for all the small time breeders. Dogs that were previously sold in the newspaper for $500 are now $1000. So, what does the small breeder do? Continue to sell their puppies for a $1000 and place their puppies in a martket of significantly lower quality dogs? Puppies from titled grandparents ONLY around here run about $1200. Many breeders shift their price to $1500-2000, which still stays comfortably below the ridiculously priced breeder. As long you are ethical, breeding sound, healthy dogs that adhere to the standard, you stand behind your contracts to protect both your buyer and your dogs, and your buyers are comfortable with the price, who exactly are you hurting?
Second, the average showline dog is suitable for a wider range of environments than the average working line. Argue with me all you want. It doesn't change the truth. I know every workingline person will tell me what great house dogs their working lines are. Of course they are! For YOU. You are DOG PEOPLE. You know how to train, lead and control a high drive dog. So many people do not. Most reputable workingline breeders I know don't WANT to sell their drivey pups into pet homes, they want to put them into working homes. They will bring a price down, heavily, to draw in serious workinghomes.
Most workingline breeders DO title their own dogs, many showline breeders do not. This drastically changes the overhead for the breeder. The stud fees for some showline dogs are higher as well.
Are some showline breeders crooks? Oh, HELL YES. I've lost track of how many very pretty dogs I know with bad joints, gasto issues, etc that people paid a fortune for. But I also know of very extreme, handler hard, high aggression working lines sold to people who just wanted a pet and got in way over their heads by breeder who said "oh sure, they make great pets". BOTH breeders are frauds in my book. Dirty salepeople and liars don't just breed black and red dogs.
A final word before I spend the remainder of my day with my wonderful new husband:
If you are breeding dogs of structural and mental correctness, dogs who are healthy, if your breeding dogs have honestly earned a working title/certification, if you stand behind the guarantee you promise your buyers, if you are honest with your buyers about the type of dog you breed and what they are buying...you are doing the breed no harm.
There is room for more than one correct type in this breed.
by judron55 on 29 April 2011 - 18:04
Second, the average showline dog is suitable for a wider range of environments than the average working line.
no argument here...when you're wrong you're wrong.....
:-)
no argument here...when you're wrong you're wrong.....
:-)
by VonIsengard on 29 April 2011 - 18:04
Do you disagree that a drivey working line dog deserves an active working home? They are hard to come by, actually. I would never place a dog who wants to work in a home where they will not be happy. The average American puppy buyer does not have what it takes to own one, and it wouldn't be fair to the dog. Most can't even handle a lab with high ball drive. What do I know, I only try to help the families learn to live with the dog they were sold, who they love, even if it was completely the wrong dog for them.
by Keith Grossman on 29 April 2011 - 18:04
"A final word before I spend the remainder of my day with my wonderful new husband..."
His name isn't Wee Willie; is it?
His name isn't Wee Willie; is it?
by Gustav on 29 April 2011 - 18:04
The German Shepherd is a working dog. Breeders that breed for working first, regardless of color, are maintaining the breed. Breeders that breed for anything else first, whether it is color, the long flying bite, hyperactivity, or couch potato, is doing disservice to the breed. The best breeders breed for dogs (like Hans says), that should be capable to be trained to do most anything in the utility/work realm. With nerve, courage, and nobility ever present and unmistakable when seen. Breeding to make everyone happy is bullshit and part of the downward slide for this breed!!JMO
by sueincc on 29 April 2011 - 18:04
VonIsengard: You are right, working line dogs need and deserve to be placed in homes where the environment is physically active and mentally stimulating for the dog, they are the wrong dog to be in a home with people who lead boring, sedentary lifestyles. Unfortunately I think that's more a sad commentary on the state of the average American family than it is the dog, but nevertheless, if the average American family is now comprised of people who are never home, or who want to sit in front of the TV or computer during the hours they are at home, then those people need lawn ornaments and couch potatoes, certainly they are not an appropriate home for the average working line dog.
by Silbersee on 29 April 2011 - 19:04
Hey Kelly,
you got hitched? Congratulations, wishing you all the best of
!
you got hitched? Congratulations, wishing you all the best of
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