Breeding without titles... open discussion, not an argument - Page 2

Funny you know, I compete in schutzhund.  I just havent seen that many crap dogs in the ring , are they out there you betcha ..... Are Canadians harder on our dogs?  You would not put a crap dog under a Judge like Lance. You just wouldnt think about it.  Crap dogs get failed here...Not only do they fail but EVERYONE knows your dog failed and the reputation sticks hard and fast. Not worth your time to show a poor dog.  There will always be the novice owner who tried to title a moderate dog.  Are these the dogs that everyone is talking about?  Funny i am right in the thick of things and just havent seen that many bad dogs on the field.  At clubs sure thing, but actually competing not so much.

I agree with jenni about dogs getting titles and then not being able to function in day to day life.  Alot of CKC dogs with Obedience titles are unable to do a recall unless in the confines of a ring.  Like Bob said titles are a good starting point and when i see a title i know that the dog has been trained and worked with.  Untitled dogs?  how would I know

I have seen titled dogs that are flipping insane.......
I've seen untitled dog that held all the qualitites stipulated in the breed standard......

Which is better?

I just breed my titled female with untitled male. The male does work like a mule, but the owner does not trial, yet the dog could be titled.. Titles are a good reference point but then again I also see alot of titled dogs that make you scatch your head asking "how". I worked all the males and then choose for what complimented my feemale for the breeding..

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=567936 



http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=431847 

So the question needs to be asked.......why did the untitled dog that held all those qualities not get a title?

J:

   I,ve got 2 of my dogs titled, Axel and Fiest. Holly (who just welped a litter) is not titled but has been worked and pretty much ready for her Bh will get titled this fall. I also (like many of us do) work for a living not training dogs 7:00 am to 5:00 pm Monday thru Friday... I get them titled as best I can.  Any dog that I would or will breed can be worked at the intrested party,s convience.  

 

 

Interesting that the same person who paid someone else to title their dog in schutzhund, comes on here and says titles dont mean anything.

How many talented working Shepherds have you seen come from lines of untitled dogs?  Rarely if ever.  Every good police dog and sport dog that I know come from titled dogs.

I can see why German bred shepherds on average are better than American bred shepherds; because a lot of no name breeders with very little experience in bite work and sports come on and say they are smarter then everyone else and decide it is not necessary to breed titled dogs.

Its a poor argument skills to dismiss all titled dogs just because you think you saw (but most likely, you only heard of dogs) that titled but shouldn't have.

 I don,t think any here is advocating not titleing dogs just the opposite. But there also saying that the dogs off field work has to be as important as the title they receive. If you don,t think the Germans aren't doing any breeding to untitled dogs your a little nieve. Also you might want to take some time and go thru pedigree,s of some  dogs new and old you might be surprised just how many untitled dogs get bred in Europe. It,s intresting to hold the Germans in such high regard as it is there watch that has allowed the test to become what is is from what it was and what it should be.

 



 

"I can see why German bred shepherds on average are better than American bred shepherds; because a lot of no name breeders with very little experience in bite work and sports come on and say they are smarter then everyone else and decide it is not necessary to breed titled dogs."

Yep, and those aren't the only proclamations being made by those self-appointed experts either.

I'm on the side of titles and breed surveys if for no other reason than it tells me that at some point, a (hopefully) objective assessment has been made of the dog's strengths and weaknesses by a knowledgeable, independent third party. 

Where did you get all of your information about the Germans, Bob; have you spent a lot of time there?  I lived there for several years and my impressions are somewhat different from yours.

 Keith:

              Who started loweing the bar on the test? Germans. Who allowed the true working line dogs with proper working  conformation to became the roached back monsters they became  ? Germans. Who invented the "mid nite trial" Germans. Who allowed the working dog of Germany to become a money most important issue? Germans.

   Objective opinion from the Germans??? Keith I love you like a brother... I  got some Land in Florida by a swamp that will make a GREAT investment oppurtunity for you...Trust me :).

  

Untitled GSDs do not get issued pink working dog papers from the SV.  I have no comment on a midnight trial, since I have only ever owned working dogs and honestly never heard about or seen one.  It was always a joke in the club when someones dog sucked they could only bring it out during the cover of darkeness so no one would see it.  Many of the rules were not changed by the voices of the working dog community. 
I think that it would be nice if some club would take up and issue a working dog pedigree and register them through another agency other than the AKC.  To be honest, AKC registry tells me a lot of nothing about my American bred pup.  I think that is where the trouble may be here in America.  You can breed anything that has AKC papers and get AKC papers....no health checks, no titles, nothing.  Then there are all these other registries as well....APR and XYZ.  Personally, I would not consider purchasing a puppy from parents who are untitled for sport use....unless I have opportunity to see both parents (assuming they train SCH and are just not titled or if they sustained an injury).  For a pet dog, I could care less if parents are titled.