Breeding without titles... open discussion, not an argument - Page 4

 Ketih:

           Your are talking out your ass. Put your money where your mouth is you pick the vet, you pick the time you pick the place and I,ll let you xray Axel any time you want what you will find is a dog with at 10 years of Age perfect elbows...Yes Keith your talking out your ass. Remember you should not believe every thing you read on the internet.  I,ll send you the report done at 7 years of Age from a Ortho vet bescribing them as perfect elbows with no sign of DJD. My vet at the time of OFA wantted to resubmit the elbows wich I never did because I,ve never seen the problem but then again I can see your a pretty paper guy after all. Again I want to see the dog not read about him. And this dog is a jumping hitting fool. But you would,nt know about that you did,nt read it on the net you were probably setting at home sulking cause when your invited to come train at club your excuse was " they don,t like my dog"  let me give you a hint they don,t mined show line dogs they mind dogs that can,t work!!! 

 I,ll take my 10 year old dog to any grounds and work him. Under any Judge US, German, Vulcan i,m not worried about finding a objective judge. If there a judge, there to be subjective...

 One thing Keith, If you come up and train at my house or with people who I train with closer to me you will need to work the vertical wall, and work your dog on a helper that won,t play with them to keep them on the sleeve.     


    
     

Most of the so called S&R dogs are awarded that title by WHO? I know people who belong to volunteer fire dept in this area who have a German Shepherd or 2 and are advertising S&R dogs and pups what training and testing NONE. The FEMA certified dogs I have seen work are TITLED and Certified and are pretty amazing, again these are trained and TITLED dogs who pass a test for their title.
We all know of dogs especially show dogs in Germany that get titles that are POS dogs, it's  called politics . For all that are bashing titled dogs I have a couple Sch titled dogs you are welcome to take on any time and a KNPV malinois that loves a good fight. I do know the problem in Australia and I will say they had some great dogs there years ago from Germany and stored lots of semen and have the ability if importing or producing some nice bitches to produce some very good dogs, As Rexy said when I was there they had some great dogs working in security that they imported and where breeding

People can and do train dogs to pass a basic SchH title by training for the whole routine. When you're titling for money, time is of the essence.  What's the solution? I don't know. This is why I like to see the dog for myself before deciding if I'd breed it.  

Any dog should be able to do SchH bitework, imo. And before anyone brings up the blessed "stick hits," sorry, but I don't think that's much in terms of real pressure. It's certainly not as much as I would need to see in order to feel comfortable breeding a dog.  I'd like to see a dog under real pressure, physically and mentally, in a situation s/he hasn't been conditioned for, and then gauge his/her reaction and go from there. There are a lot of things I'd be looking for. If I had to only use SchH to "test" or evaluate a dog for breeding, then I would actually rather watch a dog train for SchH early on than trial later; I can see more in training than the polished and practiced finished product. 

SchH is hard work- no doubt. But it should be viewed, imo, as a significant accomplishment but not THE ONLY accomplishment necessary or pertinent to propogate a line of working dogs. 

Daryl is right about some SAR teams, too. Lately, I've seen some scary examples- obesity (both dog and handler, and I'm not being mean, but seriously....how are you supposed to track productively when you can't climb a flight of stairs without gasping and panting?), lack of endurance, lack of discipline, training, control, etc. It's like a hobby for people, and I'm sorry, but while it's fine to turn SchH into a hobby, I don't believe it's fine to turn SAR into a hobby when people depend on that team. There is a HUGE variation among venues in terms of expectations and qualifications. Some titles are extremely impressive...others, not so much.  I know one dog personally that was supposedly ready to certify when he was acquired (by his owner who was afraid of him, lol- great "team" eh???) and I swear to you, that dog couldn't find a tree to piss on. 

Again, my point is not to belittle the work and time it takest to title a dog. My point is that, IMO,  titles are guidelines and INDICATIONS that a dog has a higher than average likelihood of possessing and producing said traits. I dislike and reject any steadfast "rule" (like mandatory titles of such and such particular venue in order to breed)  that elicits competition and political conflicts, as I truly believe politics and competition have no place in dog breeding and is far more detrimental than many of the other common offenses that are hurting the breed. 

Bob, where can I find a Vulcan judge? I swear, I would become a SchH convert if you can point me to a Vulcan judge! That would be awesome! I'd title every dog I have, GSD, Pit Bull, Chihuahua!!!

Without egging on this argument, I will say that I don't believe in knowingly perpetuating a health problem, but to me, lack of certification doesn't mean there's necessarily a problem, and certification doesn't mean there isn't one. I think the breeder who breeds a dog who has clear joints itself but often produces poor ones is worse than breeding a dog whose joints may not be certified for whatever reason (and by not certified, I mean not certified, not UN-XRAYED or UNKNOWN). JMO. I also think if we really worked dogs harder and went back to Darwinian breeding principles, these problems would weed themselves out, but that's a whole 'nother thread and I'm going to eat some ice cream now and check back in a couple days to see how crazy you all think I am now. 

Ok, I understand why a SAR dog needs to be recertified every year, and I also understand the point of the sport. I train in both venues, which I believe I stated.

"Lets not throw the baby out with the bath water.  Just because there are a few titled dogs that don't deserve to be bred, doesn't mean we should throw out minimum standard titles all together"

I feel that is a gross understatement, I am also not saying to throw out minimum standards either, I believe I said that schutzhund titled dogs are not the only dogs worthy of being bred. Also in response to the earlier statement about biting sports, my bitch bites just as hard as any of them, temperament is sound, tracking deep nosed and methodical, very nice pump and focus during obedience. Cross training her in both disciplines was getting very difficult, so I chose to keep working her in human remains detection, i felt she had a hell of a lot more to offer than just great sport work.

As to the org I certified my dog under, it is NAPWDA. I do feel there are some teams that are sub par, in my case I don't track live people.

"Daryl is right about some SAR teams, too. Lately, I've seen some scary examples- obesity (both dog and handler, and I'm not being mean, but seriously....how are you supposed to track productively when you can't climb a flight of stairs without gasping and panting?), lack of endurance, lack of discipline, training, control, etc. It's like a hobby for people, and I'm sorry, but while it's fine to turn SchH into a hobby, I don't believe it's fine to turn SAR into a hobby when people depend on that team. There is a HUGE variation among venues in terms of expectations and qualifications. Some titles are extremely impressive...others, not so much.  I know one dog personally that was supposedly ready to certify when he was acquired (by his owner who was afraid of him, lol- great "team" eh???) and I swear to you, that dog couldn't find a tree to piss on. oking for those that are no longer presumed to be alive."

I completely agree with this statement, I am not saying that schutzhund is easy, that it should be discounted, that you should breed dogs that have nothing at all to show for. What I did say is that to me it is not the only criteria that should be considered in breeding. I bred my bitch, she is not schH titled, she is cadaver certified. I stand behind my decision, that's all.

I also think if we really worked dogs harder and went back to Darwinian breeding principles, these problems would weed themselves out, 


Very true!
I think if we required breeders to actually work their dogs and health test the dogs these problems would absolutely work themselves out.  I would not consider a dog from untitled or untested parents.  Ahhh, I just erased everything else I wrote, it is just not worth it after reading some of the responses and knowing what some breed.  Of course they don't believe in titles because they never earned one. 

If you are breeding pet quality dogs, that's fine.  There is no requirement to title or health test dogs in the US.  But be honest and say that is what you are doing, not "I don't think SchH, SAR, herding, blah blah is a real test" so I won't do it.   

Jim



       I gues

I second Jim's post, and find it very interesting that any time there is a thread about titles/no titles for breeding - the ones who are strongly opposed to titles have all the excuses why they should not be necessary - are the same ones who breed untitled dogs and who don't work the dogs they breed.  <sigh>  really anyone who breeds shouldn't have to have excuses about why they make the choices they do.  If you have to make excuses (why your dogs are not titled, why dogs shouldn't have to be titled for breeding, why schutzhund is so stupid, why so many "shitter" dogs are titled, how you could chase a dog to prove how shitty the titled dogs are.... etc) then you shouldn't be breeding.  Just be truthful - you are breeding untitled dogs because you can.  No big deal.  I and many others who value the working-titled dog (and no that does not just mean Schutzhund sport) would never buy a puppy from you folks who breed untitled dogs.  Simple as that.

"Your are talking out your ass. Put your money where your mouth is you pick the vet, you pick the time you pick the place and I,ll let you xray Axel any time you want what you will find is a dog with at 10 years of Age perfect elbows...Yes Keith your talking out your ass. Remember you should not believe every thing you read on the internet.  I,ll send you the report done at 7 years of Age from a Ortho vet bescribing them as perfect elbows with no sign of DJD. My vet at the time of OFA wantted to resubmit the elbows wich I never did because I,ve never seen the problem but then again I can see your a pretty paper guy after all. Again I want to see the dog not read about him. And this dog is a jumping hitting fool. But you would,nt know about that you did,nt read it on the net you were probably setting at home sulking cause when your invited to come train at club your excuse was " they don,t like my dog"  let me give you a hint they don,t mined show line dogs they mind dogs that can,t work!!!"

Not how I would expect someone who "loves me like a brother" to speak to me, Bob.  Do you think it might be a little more than a coincidence that yours wasn't the only dog from that litter for whom that same elbow issue was noted?

For everyone else, I'll say it again.  This is why we title and breed survey our dogs; because most people are incapable of being objective about their own dogs' strengths and weaknesses.

Keith I like what you said about most people not being able to see faults in there dogs.  I know that I am guilty of that.....And if your dog is part of your family the way mine is thene I can see how it would be hard to do so. 

Furthermore to the Australian situation where 99.9% of breedings are from untitled dogs, the same excuses apply although excluding one Australian state, Schutzhund is active and boils down to they can't be bothered training to title or it's too hard for their level of experience training and handling dogs. Of the small anount of dogs that are titled, rarely other than sporting kennels, are titled dogs used by working line breeders on the general assumption that the titled dogs are no good, or they have an untitled dog who is better but the problem is, better on who's say so and why is the untitled dog better when no common ground exists to compare them?

Schutzhund not being a valid working test to evaluate a dog's ability to work in real life situations is a common excuse here for not titling dogs, but I fail to see an alternative test offered by some breeders to demonstrate on video for example, a dog taken out of the truck going off it's rocker on the end of the leash and relased onto a decoy for a sleeve bite and a few stick hits and then pulled off the sleeve by the handler because "serious dogs don't out, too much fighting drive to release basis" supposedly provides a display of excellence exceeding that of a titled dog's performance we are expected to be excited about wanting a pup from that dog instead of the titled dog?

I don't know how it can be determined from watching a titled dog's rountine worked in prey drive that the dog is weak under pressure and not worthy of breeding when little pressure has been applied in the rountine? Or that a dog bouncing around on the end of the leash in defence drives indicates a more serious hard nerved dog when there are plenty of over sharp fear biters who behave in the same way?