Arras van't Leefdaalhof - Page 6

So, the fact that I pointed out that Timmy was not bred as much as Troll meant nothing to you ?

The dogs that get bred a lot never seem to be the high scoring "scores are everything" dogs. Also, who is training the dog has a lot to do with "scores".

Many years ago, I asked why they bred to the dogs that did not do well. They told me that the dogs were stronger, and had a mind of their own, but went along with training to some degree.

There are many ways to look at it. If you want a dog from high scoring dogs, then so be it. Keep breeding to high scoring dogs and tell me how that works out for you. You have studied genetics, yet are not a breeder. I find that reading books is a lot different from actually going out and breeding.

I didn't call you stupid, you overly sensitive cow. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !

As i said the ideas of you Guys in the USA are far different from this side of the water,
We are Breeding and working the dogs you describe, they certainly are not Pansies. they are real tough Dogs I have no idea if you Guys are referring to a SL doing ScH or a real Working Line There is a huge difference in these Dogs regarding the ScH sport it is like putting a Mini Car against a Roll Royce Car There is NO comparison between the two
I for one do not know what type of Dog you guys are breeding, I have a good idea on the whole it seems you breed mainly soft Dogs that my take on it the way some talk on here,
Well if that is the case then you DO not need to buy more from over here  you need to get your own house in order because if it correct the way i am reading these posts then you are digging a quick grave for the German Shepherd, and i am not the only one to think it I never did until the last few months the way some describe the handling of WL dogs You do not here this talk over here but i have heard it mentioned several times that the Dogs in the USA are not the same as the Original ones that left these shores they have gone backwards that is the way you guys are looked at over here with German Shepherds, You do not hear the words defense and aggression ever on a training field or off it if a dog has any problem they simply fix it, if it lacks that certain something they try and fix it if not then they give it every chance and the time but if it does not come up to the standard that the way it is not all dogs will be of a top class in anything,
So thats the way it is over here no Words of this and that they know what to do and they see what needs doing to every dog that trains on the work field The really good handlers will see things and point them out and in most cases and will help to change it for the Handler Owner
In other words we think differently and work differently to you Guys none of this and that this Dog lacks this and that nothing technical like is put on here they get on with the job of training and they do a real good job of it without all the Bullshit talking
Steve1

remember Steve...this is a talking forum. I have met and trained with numerous Belgiums and Germans....I think we are on par as far as training and dogs go. I suggest not lumping all into one pot:-)

The comments of some are not absolutes!

Ron
I am not saying the Belgians or Germans are overall better trainers than you Guys in the USA, what i am saying is the terminologies in words talked about the training of dogs is completely  different in this side of Europe to the USA, It seems to us over here that the Americans use words to describe things where over here they do not talk about what a Dog is or has they look and say this needs to be done or that needs to be done and they get on with it, Now never having been to the States and it would be a fantastic place to see in part being so vast,
I am going on what i read on here and what the Guys have told me who go over to the USA to help train people or give seminars, I mean i here things said on here and i say to myself what the hell is that all about nothing like that is said over here, Every Dog is different every dog or most have strong points and some weaker points they need fixing if possible,
There are few Dogs that are strong in everything, Those are the outstanding indivduals but being Animals i am sure at some point they lapse i know this for sure wiith one or two top dogs over here But they sort out the problems normally
Steve1

I will give you an example in our club of a Female who has a problem. The Handler and his Dog work fairly well she is still a young dog only about 18 to 20 months old. She is good on Obedinence and her Tracking is reasonably good,
When it comes to protection however She is what they call over here a little Nervous
Now in the UK the meaning of being Nervous is to be a little intimidated or frighterned
Over in Belgium it has a different meaning i found that out in the early 80's in a hotel i was staying in, But thats another story one which may make a few think hello we have a loony on the forum.
So when this Female who at the moment is going around the second last blind to the helper in the last blind and she holds and Barks very well indeed never touching the helper or the sleeve, So the handler comes over, The Helper lets her Bite and the handler picks up the line or takes it from someone who has got hold of it and goes round then brings the dog to him in a come to me to calm the Dog, Runs around again then brings the Dog in a Come to me . NOW, to get her to loose the Sleeve, It was after a bit found that is the Handler told the Dog to Down and kneel by her side leave her a few seconds then NOT touch the Sleeve and tell her to loose it 
She did and she stayed in the same postition then slowly pull the sleeve away from her. Now the handler stands up and gives the order to sit which the dog does okay he tell the Helper to Out to the Escape postition, The Dog starts off wanting to get at the Helper, Now if the Guy gives her a strong correction she goes off worse than ever,  Now remember the Dog at this point is still at a sit not yet moving to the spot, BUT she has to remain cool and calm because a new rule coming in says a Dog must not bark in this postion or it will lose points.
 Plus she is as they say not in control of her feelings at this point all she wants to do is get to the Helper.
This was some time ago so they said to the Guy she is to Nervous  and he needs to calm her  but she is a real crazy little Bitch
So what they are doing and it is working is to get the handler to walk her away from the helper in his postition do a few left and right turns she wants to turn round to the helper the handler goes to the right each time she turns her head Periodically the Handler stops and the Dog sits slowly he brings her round to the postition for the Escape, The dog sits then downs the Helper moves and the Dog Bites and bites well.. So here i outline a problem with a dog not she is this and that in big words just a problem to solve and after a month of doing this she is slowly calming down it has got to a high whine now instead

nice information

Mr Oelhsen
Thats as much as your good for name calling just your mark when folk do not agree with you
However you say books i do not read from bloody books but go on practical experience being involved in Riding out Steeplechasers for the top Trainers in the UK and knowing and helping out in the Top breeding Studs of the UK Horse Racing Fraternity, Plus Breeding Racing pigeons YES, mere Racing pigeons with a very much more complex form of breeding than Dogs or Horses or any other form of Animal, it is an Art and know how  to breed a family and keep it at the very top in Performances for 50 plus years the current family has been Winning at National and International level for 23 years now you do not do that if you do not know nothing about Genetics and if you do not know what you are doing you can ruin a family in two generations to be an also ran in the prize list
However to get to what you are talking about
TWO full Brothers and from the same Nest Litter
Troll was ScH111 V-BSP A show Grade, Had around 900 Progeny ZW 88

Timmy was ScH111 BSP SG show Grade Had around 90 Progeny ZW 88
 So  Troll had 10 times as many Progeny, It depends on the owner of any dog how many times he uses it for Stud Purposes, Both have produced a nice line of Dog there Performances on the Work field are on Par with the two brothers In all proablitilty Troll looks to be a more pleasing dog to the eye for some.
I know for a fact you Guys in the USA are Colour Orintated when purchasing Dogs it has been said enough on this Forum and they could be elsewhere for instance Germany i do not know.
You can make a case for any dog you get regards its breeding i notice on here how some go off in raptures over some breedings but i myself do not rate them very high and i do not ever comment that i do not like them that is unfair and wrong,
 Thats not to say i am correct just the breeding does not suit me, and that goes for you Guys on here with my Dogs you may not rate there breeding but i like them and i know the potential in the dogs so thats all that matters,
For instance my new Pup which i pick up a week Tuesday I think he is an exceptional bred Puppy from the very best working lines and i love the way he is bred, but you and others may not rate him if you knew his breeding.
I am not on here to fight with you or anyone else, Life is to short we may not always agree, but one thing we have in common is we like to talk about Dogs and how they are bred, It matters not if we agree with each other that is not possible all the time
Steve1

Steve 1 i,m interested to know the breeding of the pup you talk highly about who is sire and dam,the USA has some very top breeding stock just like Europe does,sure we have some low grade just like Europe does,there are many here that care about top working ability we are more than just show dogs

90 vs 900.

Timmy was the better scoring dog, but the dog not bred to nearly as much. That was the example I was making.

As far as color, I could care less. That makes very little difference to me. If I were to have a color preference, it would probably be silver sable. Or maybe straight black. : )

I used to race pigeons. I love those birds.

I look for patterns when I see breedings. It is not easy at all, and I sometimes wonder why I bother, as it is not always very correct. One of the things that I see is not the high scoring dog being bred, but his lower scoring brother. I also have been told this is what many breeders that I like dogs out of do.

I don't have all the answers, but this is how I discuss, by asking questions and showing some examples. I was hoping to see your examples of breedings.

Good point on Timmy,why his full brother Troll was bred to more does anyone know ? Did people like the darker look,was Timmys owner too high on stud fee or too hard to get ahold of to bring bitches to ? I think both dogs could produce well I would be happy to have either dog in my lines and I do have both and the Javir dog I think history will be the judge on how well of producer he is,Ive seen both good and bad come out of him,I would think its how good of a bitch he is matched up with, but everyone knows it still can be a crap shoot,proof is in the puppies.

Timmy and Troll both reportedly produced well, very comparably in working drives and normal hips to their progeny.  Troll however had a better show rating, and I may be wrong, but appearantly had better grips and faster attack speed of the two.

A similar example can be found in Ellute/Eros von der Mohnwiese.  Ellute (Kkl1) gets over 5 times the breedings as his brother (Kkl2) but Eros has a better performance record.  Ellute has a ZW83 and Eros a ZW76, but I've explained enough times in past posts that the HD-Zuchtwerte system can be very misleading.