Breeder Rights? Breeder Greed? - Page 3

While I have already stated my view on this issue in terms of "giveback" clauses, I have to say that I am shocked that anyone really thinks that as a breeder, you shouldn't have any interest in an animal that exists solely because you bred it. If you aren't a total ass, you put a lot of thought, time, effort, training, money, etc., not to mention LOVE into a breeding, and I for one, am attached to every single one of them before they go home. I remember every single unique personality and will care about them all until I die. Sorry, but it's true. Now, I will go to my grave probably having only bred a handful of litters, but I don't think I would feel any differently if I bred a lot of dogs.

I would not even sell a dog to someone who thinks the day he/she changes hands, that I have no further interest in the dog. Buy pens instead of puppies if you have a problem with someone caring about animals they created. I don't even understand why someone who feels differently would even want a dog if they think of them in that regard. I am grateful that the people I have sold puppies to appreciate the effort and thought that went into them and they are in turn grateful enough for their dog that they allow me the privilege of regular updates and even visits. In fact, I would consider nearly all of them to be friends.

Molly,

Contact your Animal Control Officer and explain the situation, show them the contract, make a case. Call the cops, make a case. Get the Case #. Friends have no legal right to hold the dogs as they have no legal ownership over them. Solicitor has no legal right to dispose of those dogs against the written contract between you and the diseased owner - he would have to go thru Court himself. The Animal Control Officer can act on your behalf. That's usually enough.

If you want to go nasty you can accuse him of disposing of valuable property from the estate of the diseased. And friends with pocession of the property that doesn't belong to then. In this matter they have more to lose than you if they don’t play nice. If the dogs are worth over $4K (depending on the State) it’s a case for the Court. But if you win – they have to pay you all court costs and pay for any damages that they may caused to their training, behavior, etc. (depending on what can be proven in court). Get a statement from a trainer that the diseased owner worked with, his club, etc. to show that those dogs are not worked anymore and what state they were before friends took them in. I assume your contract states the amount the owner paid for the dogs - that's the mimimum capital gain on friend's behalf and that's the amount from the estate that the solicitor lost (embezzled) from the estate by 'giving' dogs to friends of the diseased. But don't put anything in writting. The only written legal document is your contract and leave it this way. Don't give anybody any amunition against you.

Be aware that that can turn both ways, if you get the dogs back, IRS can tax you on capital gain…

I know it is emotional for everybody involved, but contract is a contract and friends don’t have any legal rights to those dogs. I speak here from a breeder perspective - If they were a good choice as a potential new owner – I bet you (or me for that matter) would consider letting it go and not making a big issue out of it…

If it goes into Court you may request to have friend's dogs evaluated by the professional trainer to see if they (friends) can be considered a potential owner of trained (especially in protection) dogs. Do they have any prior experience in owning a powerful breed (two Sch/protection/bite trained dogs in this matter). You are right – trained dogs in a hands of the wrong person (doesn’t matter how much they love the dog) can be dangerous.

"I would not even sell a dog to someone who thinks the day he/she changes hands, that I have no further interest in the dog. Buy pens instead of puppies if you have a problem with someone caring about animals they created. I don't even understand why someone who feels differently would even want a dog if they think of them in that regard." 

I have no problem communicating with my dogs' breeder about their development, health etc.  I'm simply philosophically opposed to anyone having any legal or equitable interest in my property other than me.  That's because while I can pretty much guarantee that I will get along with myself there are no such guarantees that others will remain reasonable, and if there's no outside interest then I'm assured of no future hassle.

"I am grateful that the people I have sold puppies to appreciate the effort and thought that went into them and they are in turn grateful enough for their dog that they allow me the privilege of regular updates and even visits. In fact, I would consider nearly all of them to be friends."

"Allow[ing] the privilege" is different than a contractual term or condition, which goes directly to my point.

Donald,

You know what my biggest concern as a breeder? Person lies on the puppy app and lies to me in person.  I sell that puppy only to THIS particular person and then – puppy gets sold or given away to another horrible person that destroys the dog mentally or physically and I have no way of helping that pup out. That’s why I put that clause in my contracts. Paring right dogs with right people is very important for me. That’s how as a breeder I can make sure that the owners get what they wanted and paid for while making sure that those pups will be taken care of.

Only people who really want that pup for themselves will agree to the terms of the contract.

If I care about my puppy I would not dump it at the shelter or give it away to anybody for free or sell it with a profit. I would like to know that the breeder will accept the puppy back anytime and find him suitable home in my name. If I knew of a person that would want to adopt or buy my dog, I would contact the breeder, vouch for that person and give a breeder all contact info to check for themselves.

If my interest is to sell this dog in a future to the person I want to sell it to – I would find a breeder who doesn’t care about it.
 

I think it depends on the breeder whether it is greed or not. I don't think Molly's contract will stand up in court. At least I hope it doesn't. I'm with DD on this. What a gargantuan head to think that the breeder can only know where these dogs should end up. After that whole bit with hiding Gabby from her owner, what a crock. It is money for some. I am positive. I'd never sign a contract like that. My dog is my dog. You don't trust me, well, I don't trust you back. It isn't like there is a GSD shortage, is there?

Beetree - what are you talking about?  Gabi was rescued from her owner who would have bred her until her uterus fell out.  And, I happened to be her co-owner with full rights to keep the dog whereever I chose to keep her according to the agreement when her owner abandoned her in my care and asked me to breed her again to help pay her bills.  Nuf said, that's old news.

My contract means, as most responsible caring breeders' contracts means, that the owner agrees, by signing the contract, to give the breeder first right of refusal, first contact if the owner decides to place or sell the dog.  That's what my contract means, and it's what the owner agreed to when she signed it for both dogs.

molly

Niesia, thanks for the interesting information.  I have a couple questions - have you personally used any of these methods, has this sort of thing  happened to you?  were the animal control officers and/or police willing to help you - how did they help?  What did the solicitor do?  what was the situation you found yourself in, having to take these sort of steps to repossess or get back dogs that you bred?  What happens if the dogs are in a different state than you?  which state's police or animal control officials do you contact?

do you have a contract that held up in court for this sort of situation?  If so, could I read this contract?

Does anyone have a contract used for the sale of an adult dog, with a right of first refusal if the owner decides to place/sell the dog - that is proven to be legally binding in court?

thanks, mainly curious about all of this. 

molly

Molly I don't see your version as true, no surprise, and that drama/episode is all water under the bridge, except as an example of how you operate. And you said,  as the breeder, I will paraphrase because I don't want to go back, "that who but the breeder... (you) knows what homes are best for these dogs." That is a pile of crock. It isn't that hard to know the dogs want to stay where they are familiar even if you know you can make them accept the adjustment.

Clearly this "mentor" had skills, and I'll bet anything, those skills translate into dollars/potential earnings because the dogs are trained. You, I am sure have not lost sight of that for a minute, otherwise you'd leave these poor grieving people alone with their dogs.

They are not their dogs, beetree.  They are dogs who lost their owner and their home.  They are not in familier homes now, they are with strangers who don't even know anything about the breed or the breed's needs and requirements to make the dogs as happy and content as they were with their owner.

they should come back to me, the breeder.  I know what their needs are and I can meet their life requirements for the dogs' lifetimes, as I promise every puppy I put on this earth.  Their owner agreed to this when she signed my contracts.  If she didn't agree, she woudln't have purchased two dogs from me.

and if you want " proof" of the ownership issue of the other matter, e-mail me privately and I can certainly show you the akc registration with ownership info on it.  eichenluft@aol.com

molly

First of all I would never sign a contract giving the breeder first right of refusal or stating that I would return the dog to the breeder if I had to part with it. I feel that if  I  raised a dog from  an 8 week old puppy that I would know that dog better then any breeder could when  it left at 8 weeks. Based on that alone I feel I would know where the best home would be for the dog. If I chose to sell the dog and thought the breeder would be better suited to rehome the dog  I would expect fair payment for the dog, after all I paid what the breeder thought was a fair price when I purchased it.

    Are there any breeders out there that really beleive they know whats best for a dog they last saw as an eight week old puppy?