Breeder Rights? Breeder Greed? - Page 4

Good point Michael.

Molly, why not let these people know you are there for them and the dogs, if they have any problems, and just let them be for now. 
I'm curious how these people got these dogs?  Did the owner die suddenly?  Maybe she forgot about what she had signed with you, and had asked this other couple to take her dogs in case of her death.

Regarding contracts, I've seen so many phony hypocritical breeders it makes me wanna .  Breeders who get a dog from the pound, unaltered  breed it, than put no breeding contracts on the puppies. Really, isnt' that moral.
  I know a breeder now that has twenty Great Dane puppies from two females, (which she obviously bought without contracts) and has no breeding contracts on the pups. No hip certifications.  1200 bucks a pop.   Do you really think she cares about overpopulation?   Obviously not, what she cares about is others breeding her dogs and becoming competition for her.

  We've got limited registration and full registration on the same friggin' dog.  Is it worth breeding or not?  Just another way to grab more money if someone doesn't want to alter it, or in some cases wants to breed it. 

I could go on and on.

In the beginning maybe contracts were to protect the buyer, now in the name of protecting the dog, they are lining many a breeders pockets.


Sorry, most contracts are a crock, and like others have said, there are lots of GSD's out there (good GSD's from non controlling breeders) so really, who needs this shite?

 

Ya'll forget that just perhaps, someone who has known the parents their entire lives just may know a teensy bit about that dog that was sold at 8 weeks. Genetics are weird like that.  Thus, the "I know it best" doesn't always hold water.

Really, a breeder is damned if we do and damned if we don't. According to RS, we need to butt the f--- out of all things to do with that dog,( a living, breathing being that we care about and are responsible for creating) because it's YOUR dog, unless there's any sort of lack of perfection with it, and in that case, we need to bend over backwards to fix it, regardless of whether we had any control over the problem or not, regardless of whether the buyer can accept any responsibility or not, because at this point, it's OUR dog and OUR responsibility, and the same as a faulty sweater or television or something. Sorry, can't have it both ways.

And RS, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but you're saying that you'd rather buy from a "no hassle" breeder (because you don't need their shit) and just take your chances w/the pup than buy from a breeder who gives a damn and will buy the dog back at any point you have to get rid of it for any reason?

FYI - the dogs are being cared for by an experienced working line GSD owner.  They are being worked at the schutzhund club where the owner and current caretaker trained together.  Think about it; a woman with no chidren whose life revolved around her dogs and competition really only has serious friendships with like minded people, not some some random pet friends who took these dogs in to be couch potatoes.  The amount of inaccuracies and contrived details coming out in this thread is nauseating......

I think it boils down to if you don't like the contract again don't buy the dog.  If you worry about wether or not your contract will hold up in court then have a lawyer look at it and help you fix it so it is iron clad if you have to go to court.  We may all have opinions on how this should go, but we have no idea what is going on, who the people that have the dog are etc. The point is our opinion doesn't really matter there is a contract, dogs are considered property the owner died that makes them part of the estate.  The owner bought the dogs he obv didn't have a problem with the contract he signed it.  As harsh as it sounds if they wanted something else done with their dogs they should have left a provision for them in the will.  I'm not saying that is my opinion here, but my opinion doesn't matter.  I would think the breeder should have to pay the estate the market value of the dogs taking the training, titles etc into consideration.  It also isn't as expensive to have a lawyer look at your contracts and help you as you might think.  I would recommend it, it will keep you out of a situation like this.  Everyone that is going to breed and sell with a contract should probably have it done.  Take in your contract have them look at it, then explain what you are trying to do with your warranties, first rights of refusal etc they can tell you how to accomplish it, so you are covered there is no "play" room in the contract etc.  Then if you do have to end up in court to enforce it, you can sleep easy knowing that the law is on your side.

Jenni, breeder knowledge of the temperament of their bloodline is a fact in some cases, but  not all matings between the same pair of   dogs produce the same type of puppies in every litter, that's common knowledge. Aside from that fact genetics are not the sole factor in the temperament of dogs, enviorment,socialization,training,living quarters and a thousand other things enter the equation after the puppy leaves the breeder. It's great that you are willing to buy back any puppy you sell,at any point in their life. Unfortunately not all breeders are willing to do so and I think you're aware that some only want the dog back in hope of financial gain.

Michael, that may be true occasionally, but even if someone totally ruined a dog I would still buy it back, for the dog's sake. I don't buy dogs back because I want them back; I buy them back so I don't wonder and worry about what happened to them when they lost their home due to __________. If I buy them back, the owner is happy, doesn't lose money, and I am happy because I can find a new, wonderful home for the dog that I brought into this world. I have a pretty good handle on those pups before they leave (I spend hours upon hours watching them and evaluating them in the 2+ months prior to their departure, and some I keep several months and sell a little older) and though environment does affect them, it goes both ways; they can behave one way w/that person and another way w/another. So, my point is that just because they may be far older and I may not "know" them anymore, I still feel I'm in a better position (or at least more likely to truly have their best interests at heart) to look out for them in an emergency. Another stranger isn't going to "know" them any better than I do, but the other stranger is not as likely, imo, to have the same concern as I do. However, I don't ever think they should be free unless they have clearly been abused or neglected in some way. I think the very least a buyer should get back is their initial investment. If they paid shipping, then I pay shipping, too.

If a dog is worth more now than I can afford, then I'll just request to be updated w/the new owner's contact info. I think this is important should I need to get ahold of them for health reasons, for example. Let's say one of their littermates comes down w/some kind of hereditary defect; I think it's only fair that all owners are notified so they can be on alert and keep an eye out.

This is all just how I feel about breeding and placement and not in any way commenting on the particular situation here. This was just intended to illustrate some of my concerns and why I have the guarantee I do, so people see another side besides the "gee, I think I'll sell this pup on limited reg., then get it back for free when the owner falls on hard luck, and then resell it for thousands now that I can sell it on full reg. because someone else spent a ton of time and money on it."  There are people who really do just worry about the dog and worry about what happens when it loses its home. Bad things can happen to good dogs who belonged to good people, especially in times like this.

beetree, please stop muddying the waters of this thread by resurrecting something that is COMPLETELY unrelated to the topic.  Molly was not the breeder of Gabi, and that situation had nothing to do with a deceased owner.  If you really feel the need to re-examine that whole sordid episode in PDB's history, go start a thread dedicated to that subject, won't you? Thanks awfully.

This thread is a discussion of something that is extremely important to all dog owners, especially those who fail to make legally enforceable arrangements for the care and ownership of their dogs in the event of the owner's death or prolonged incapacitation, and there are serious lessons to be learned here.

"FYI - the dogs are being cared for by an experienced working line GSD owner.  They are being worked at the schutzhund club where the owner and current caretaker trained together.
 

So Molly's what is  your concern really?
 

 

 """

OK so what does Molly's contract say about buying back or FRoR? Is their anything about fair value of the dog or do you expect to pay the puppy price?

I never even thought about a breeder trying to pry a dog back from a buyer who may have passed away. At that point your not even dealing with the buyer, so you can't say the contract isn't being followed. I don't have a will yet concerning my dog, but if my husband doesn't want to keep him, he knows to contact the breeder.I always assumed a FRoR was to benefit everybody, not just the dog. I gave my breeder that right and he couldn't take the dog, as he had just taken back another sibling at that time, but he also requested I forward the new buyers info to him for updates, he didn't make me feel guilty or ask to pay a puppy price. He trusted me to find the dog a suitable working home and I would have trusted him to take the dog at no cost to him, should I needed to place him for emergency reasons, rather than rush to place him blindly or at a shelter. I didn't feel trapped in some iron clad deal, more like a safety net should some crazy shit happen. A buyer can't "expect" a breeder to pay whatever price they request for buying back the dog at anytime and I don't think a breeder can "demand" they get the dog back no matter what, for free or at the original pup price. I thought most breeders just want to know that the dog is changing hands and who/contact info of the new owner for peace of mind. I never heard of a breeder demanding to place the dog without the current owners help if they so chose to handle that aspect.

Who is to know what this womans will said, unless you were there for the reading and I doubt the breeder/Molly was present for that? I would assume a contract wouldn't hold up without a "price" or FMV at the time of signature from the owner, or a death of owner clause. I didn't hesitate to sign my breeders contract, but I knew he would either pay me what I would ask the next guy for the dog (FMV) or decline, not fight me should the dog not workout for me in the end. I don't see a death as a "need" for the breeder to step in. The owner is gone, not looking to rehome the dogs. The breeder is obviously not being asked to step in, so this feels rather odd to me. Everyday pets are passed down to friends and relatives with no one going to court. A loving home is all that is looked at, no monetary values or whatever.

If said "friend" does keep the dogs, the reg owner is gone and cannot sign any breeding papers, so I would assume the dogs are "worthless" to the friend in that aspect or am I wrong? Wouldn't these dogs kind of become paperless the same as if they were adopted from the pound? If the owner does not sign ove rthe papers to the breeder/Molly how would she fair in the same aspect?

I hope this post doesn't sound too dumb. I'm working on about 8hrs sleep in the last 3 days.