Origin of Arched Back - Page 1

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Smiley

by Smiley on 11 September 2011 - 10:09

With all this Sieger talk, I have been checking out the dogs mentioned in threads. Why do they have such arched backs? 

Does the arched back serve a purpose? If so, what is that purpose?

Are they just being positioned that way by their handlers and they would not have that look if they were loose? Why would the handlers want to make them look like that?

I researched early German dogs that were imported and they do not have the arched back.

So, where did it come from and why is it so prevelant?

Again, I apologize for my ignorance.  I am still learning.....

GSDguy08

by GSDguy08 on 11 September 2011 - 12:09

Honestly, I wander where it came from as well.   Sometimes the dogs in pictures are poorly stacked.....many times, it's the structure of the dog.  I will never understand why people say it's better for the dog, or helps movement/speed/etc.   The dogs before that, going back to the first dogs you will see in any pedigree all had straight backs.  To me a "arch" or roach back makes the dog look in pain.  Maybe someone else though can come along and tell you how it all started though.

ronin

by ronin on 11 September 2011 - 13:09


I'm not so sure myself, I would also ask what is the origin of the straight back. Our spine's are "S" shaped, looking at the working collies on farms their backs are curved but not sloped, the same for wolves and coyotes. I don't think nature does straight lines, the curvature is for performance, just look at cats or cheetahs. I think this might more of a sloping down back issue, either way it can't be right.

Ronin

by Ibrahim on 11 September 2011 - 13:09

Roached and Arched backs

I think there is a difference between the two. Not all dogs who look roached are in fact roached, sometimes the way they are stacked causes this look. There are though real Roached back show GSDs and this is a fault, why? because a real roach causes low withers and in gaiting head and neck fall below the imaginary horizontal line passing through the highest point of the back which is in this case the peak of the roach. In such a case dog can not make a full front reach and if the roach is severe it may even stumble as front strides are shorter than should be and not in coordination with back reach and its generated force.
Arched back on the other hand is much stronger than a sagging one and tighter than a level/straight one. An arched back  is actually longer than a level/straight back, just imagine an arched back straightened up then it will show a much longer back. An arched back, but not a very steep one, on a dog of minimum acceptable length ratio to height shows a remarkable rear momentum in fast gaiting and shows a beautiful smooth topline of less curvature/almost level back but maintaining the high withers when in movement plus even long reaching strides and the dog moves in ease and enjoys maximum endurance.
That said does not prove this is the correct thing for the breeders to do as per the standard but maybe it explains why many show breeders like arched backs, not only it being the nowadays fad and provides nicer look. As said many times by the experts breeding for extremes is wrong as it will bring problems un-accounted for or kick away other favourable traits and arched back is no exception.

Above dog has a sloping open arch topline, in regards to movement, theoretically it should provide a smooth transfer of drive force through the spine even at full reach when the topline is fully stretched and tensioned to its extreme resulting into an almost level line at no chance of enduring excessive bending moment/ flexure on the spine as that which could be caused in a 100% level/straight back in standing then has no enough room in its spine to be stretched in fast trotting.

Ibrahim



Cassandra Marie

by Cassandra Marie on 11 September 2011 - 13:09

I've often wondered the same.  Does the arched back serve a utility purpose or did somewhere along the line some handler showed a dog like this, win with it and the trait was bred into certain lines?  In the 1970's and early 80's, I  bred show and coursing Afghan Hounds. Then and even to this day a level topline is preferred to accomodate the angulation of this breed.  In the 1990"s I bred show and working Australian Shepherds and again a level topline is part of the breed.  I mention this because both breeds are very athletic and need speed for either the hunt or herding purposes. However that being said, other speed dogs have arched backs, i.e. greyhound, Borzoi and Whippet.  When one turns to nature and studies lions, tigers, wolves, coyotes, panthers, leopards, foxes, etc they all have level toplines.  Then the truest speed animal of all - the horse, whether domestic bred or mustang have a level topline.

What I have noticed with the arched topline on Shepherds, is that their loin area appears to be shorter than average.  Therefore, in my opinion that may be why when an arched Shepherd moves, their rear legs overstep the front legs.  Is this to give the impression of power?

I will be interested in reading this thread and hear from breeders of this type of Shepherd, to really learn why they developed this trait into their bloodlines.

Cassandra

Cassandra Marie

by Cassandra Marie on 11 September 2011 - 13:09

Hi Ronin:

I read your response to my husband and it gave us much to discuss over morning coffee.  We are wondering when you look at the toplines of the animals you mentioned, are you evaluating  them from the wither to the start of their tail?  Because when we judge their toplines, we look from the withers to the hipbone and do not include the drop off of the croup.

In advance, thanks for your reply.
Cassandra

GSDguy08

by GSDguy08 on 11 September 2011 - 13:09

ronin, where did straight backs come from?  These wolves backs look pretty straight.  Wolves can travel over 40 miles a day, traveling, hunting, and bringing down prey.  Straight backs don't hinder them at all.  There are some that can run 35 to 45 mph in short bursts....obviously they don't do that long, and typical traveling or hunting isn't like that.  When you say "S" shaped....how is that S shaped?



The Malinois today, the first Shepherds....their backs were straighter as well.  When I talk about arched or roached, I guess I mean the extreme....obviously most dogs will have a slop or arch at the very back/tail going down. That, I don't mind at all.

In my breed an arched or roached back would be considered a fault. This picture doesn't show my dog "stacking" since Huskies stacking...don't have one leg pulled out farther than the other.....But here is one of my dogs.


I just mean how we went from this.....



.....to what some of them look like today.  Of course not all are bad, and there are many, many nice looking showline structured dogs.  They aren't my cup of tea regardless, but I'm referring to the ones with extreme roaches. How do we go from the above picture to how many are today? 











Mike D

by Mike D on 11 September 2011 - 22:09

What I really want to know is, when looking at the wolf picture, specifically the wolf that is 2nd from the left.....who is he laughing at?


Mike

Abby Normal

by Abby Normal on 11 September 2011 - 22:09

Positioning accounts for some of the arching, but not all. Some dogs have a more pronounced convex spine than others.

I have heard that it was considered that an arch was considered more stable than a level structure, such as a bridge. Of course the flawed logic in applying that to a living animal is not accounting for the necessary flexion to allow motion.

if the roach is severe it may even stumble as front strides are shorter than should be and not in coordination with back reach and its generated force.
 
A study undertaken has (surpisingly) shown that in fact momentum (or thrust) in the GSD is actually not generated from the rear, but from the front. I believe the study was done in Germany. Dingo vom haus Gero, the dog who illustrates a beautiful and correct topline in the gait did not have an arched spine, neither did he 'drop' his rear in movement as many dogs with arched backs are prone to do, which again is incorrect.

their rear legs overstep the front legs.  Is this to give the impression of power?
My understanding has always been that this is incorrect, the rear legs should not overstep the front legs. The GSD is meant to single track.

Arched back on the other hand is much stronger than a sagging one and tighter than a level/straight one.
If anyone hasn't seen the video of the Malinois (under the bitework thread) then I would suggest that you have a look and then give an opinion as to whether that dog with a straight and level back is weaker than a GSD? You could almost say they have a 'dipped' back.

All herding breeds with the exception of the (show type) GSD, that actually DO work all day long have straight/level toplines. Dogs that work all day such as huskies, wild predators such as wolves - all have a straight back. The working GSD has an 'un-arched' back. I have yet to hear a valid reason for an arch, some myths but not a valid reason....yet.  JMO.

Smiley

by Smiley on 12 September 2011 - 10:09

Wow! I am really, really shocked that nobody knows when the arched back look started! I figured there are people on this forum that have been breeding a long time and, certainly, they must remember when it all began and why.

Maybe nobody wants to comment on it now because they now have dogs with the arched back and so they don't want to comment.  Is this the look that a breeder MUST have to be competitive even if they do not like the look? I don't know.

But, the GSD didn't have an arched back before and now they do so is it simply......fad???

I know in showing horses- one period it was a movement fad; another a table top topline fad; another a long neck fad; then a pretty head fad.

Could the arched back simply be a fad that resulted when a top dog won with this fault?  Or, is the arched back an improvement over function for some reason?

After reading the posts, I am really shocked that breeders are not commenting more. Why is it that nobody remembers when it started? It couldn't be that long ago or could it? 

Also, why on earth would someone want to pose a dog like that on purpose? I am sorry but I don't understand.  Can someone please explain it to me?  If the arched back is stronger than why didn't the GSD have that back since the beginning. Why only recently? Why is it that other strains of german shepherd do not have the arched back? Why is it restricted to dogs that show in German style show?

Again, I apologize. Just trying to understand.....





 


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