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by duke1965 on 30 September 2011 - 07:09
bruce lee analogy is nice but not in place as people react with rational thinking and dogs react on instinct ,flight or fight , no other options in reaction of threat
if green dog is under threath he will make choice
training can make a dog stronger and some dogs will make different choice after training
I agree however that only few green dogs will protect you , and sportbreeding of today will bring that number down even more
if green dog is under threath he will make choice
training can make a dog stronger and some dogs will make different choice after training
I agree however that only few green dogs will protect you , and sportbreeding of today will bring that number down even more
by ronin on 30 September 2011 - 07:09
This is very interesting, as a Police Officer of 24yrs I've investigated house burglaries where the showline or mutt has done an outstanding job, I mean serious fight at point of entry, continued in the house, inflicting substantial injuries, then cornering the subject for many hours prior to the family returning home. Likewise I can't remember how many GSDs and Rotts have also been stolen during other burglaries.
I think it makes a big difference if the dog is on a lead, in the car or in house or garden.
Police Dogs are bred, imported, assessed then trained for 12 continuous weeks in the UK and its very common for them not to bite the subject on their first few conflicts, or the bite is not a committed one. I also train with the military, recently doing an exercise with a special forces malinois, 7yrs old, been back a week from Afghanistan, where god only knows what he had been doing; he missed a bite on an external metal staircase.
I had a rottweiler, that had a real dominant presence, totally passive dog, he would barely bite his dog biscuits, but his presence was incredible.
Can I state the obvious for PP dogs which are rarely tested; they don't know what the weapon hand is, they don't know what a knife or a gun is and how it can injure them, and they can't distinguish between a jogger and robber running towards them.
Its a romantic idea that there's someone out there thats got your back.
Ronin
I think it makes a big difference if the dog is on a lead, in the car or in house or garden.
Police Dogs are bred, imported, assessed then trained for 12 continuous weeks in the UK and its very common for them not to bite the subject on their first few conflicts, or the bite is not a committed one. I also train with the military, recently doing an exercise with a special forces malinois, 7yrs old, been back a week from Afghanistan, where god only knows what he had been doing; he missed a bite on an external metal staircase.
I had a rottweiler, that had a real dominant presence, totally passive dog, he would barely bite his dog biscuits, but his presence was incredible.
Can I state the obvious for PP dogs which are rarely tested; they don't know what the weapon hand is, they don't know what a knife or a gun is and how it can injure them, and they can't distinguish between a jogger and robber running towards them.
Its a romantic idea that there's someone out there thats got your back.
Ronin
by ironshepherd on 30 September 2011 - 09:09
An untrained dog can and will protect it's family. Of course there are exceptions. The Bruce lee and Jordan comparisons are ridiculous. If you really want to compare a dog to a human then think of it this way: would a human with no training in fighting protect his/her family? The answer is yes. You don't have to be an expert to protect your loved ones.
by Red Sable on 30 September 2011 - 10:09
The dog I am speaking of had no problem biting, he definitely would protect, without any training. He was tried a few times on a sleeve. Never trained on a sleeve, but had no problem biting it when he was shoved. Until he was shoved, he just ignored the man.
We shouldn't have to train courage, maybe that is where we are screwing up with the sport dogs. We are breeding for flashy obedience. All dogs know how to bite already.
This dog I had was a dominant dog in every way, and his obedience was good, but not flashy. He thought he was near par with me when it came to rank, he did obey, but he wouldn't win any points for it, and that suited me fine. Definitely a dog of courage, had lots of prey, would search for a ball in a corn field all day till he found it, attacked the weedeater, lawnmower, even chain saw without fear.
I agree with Gustav, they are few and far between now.
We shouldn't have to train courage, maybe that is where we are screwing up with the sport dogs. We are breeding for flashy obedience. All dogs know how to bite already.
This dog I had was a dominant dog in every way, and his obedience was good, but not flashy. He thought he was near par with me when it came to rank, he did obey, but he wouldn't win any points for it, and that suited me fine. Definitely a dog of courage, had lots of prey, would search for a ball in a corn field all day till he found it, attacked the weedeater, lawnmower, even chain saw without fear.
I agree with Gustav, they are few and far between now.
by FlashBang on 30 September 2011 - 13:09
My SL GSD (German) is protective of us (me, especially.) While he has never been in the position to physically attack someone to protect us, if someone is acting suspicious around us, or if someone is around our property late at night, you can be sure that there will be a large black and red GSD in full on "get out of here" mode. He has never had any sort of protection training whether that be just alerting or actual physical force.
He also has been TT'ed by the ATTS, has his CGC, and is a herding dog so it's not "unstable nerves" or a "bad wired" dog acting aggressively.
He also has been TT'ed by the ATTS, has his CGC, and is a herding dog so it's not "unstable nerves" or a "bad wired" dog acting aggressively.
by Emoore on 30 September 2011 - 13:09
"Could an untrained,well bred wl gsd protect you?"
I don't know if he could or not, but I have a very nice collection of firearms and I WILL protect him.
I don't know if he could or not, but I have a very nice collection of firearms and I WILL protect him.
by GSDguy08 on 30 September 2011 - 14:09
Will a husband who isn't trained to fight protect his family from an intruder? Or will he stand back and let the intruder harm his family just because he wasn't "trained" to defend? Does he need special martial arts training to do so? There was a "mutt" recently on the news here that obviously was not trained.....but protected the family from an intruder and did so very well at that. I can't go with the "michael jordan" idea on all of that. Sports are a totally different thing.
by Felloffher on 30 September 2011 - 15:09
I would suggest that all the believers run a scenario at your home to test your dog if it's important to you. If you're not concerned I guess there's no harm in believing your dog will take care of things. However, I would not put that faith in my own dogs if they weren't trained.
by ronin on 30 September 2011 - 15:09
The Husband has the potential to protect his family but it's subjective whether that individual has the mindset and capability.
Again referring to my experience at work it's about 50/50 whether a person defends a partner or friend, and men are the worst offenders.
There are some very sad articles from WW2 concerning the Nazi's rounding up Jewish Families, and when it's a case of it's you or them (loved ones) the tragic reality faced with such an over whelming threat was it was each to his own, we revert to animal behavior in the most extreme circumstances!
When driving a safe car such as a Volvo you are increasing your likely hood of surviving a serious accident because of the design and build of the vehicle but it's not a guarantee. Likewise with a PP Dog, the breeding and training, with a bit of luck on the day will increase the probability of a positive outcome.
Of course you can lucky with a mutt, like you can get lucky falling off a motorbike.
Ronin
Again referring to my experience at work it's about 50/50 whether a person defends a partner or friend, and men are the worst offenders.
There are some very sad articles from WW2 concerning the Nazi's rounding up Jewish Families, and when it's a case of it's you or them (loved ones) the tragic reality faced with such an over whelming threat was it was each to his own, we revert to animal behavior in the most extreme circumstances!
When driving a safe car such as a Volvo you are increasing your likely hood of surviving a serious accident because of the design and build of the vehicle but it's not a guarantee. Likewise with a PP Dog, the breeding and training, with a bit of luck on the day will increase the probability of a positive outcome.
Of course you can lucky with a mutt, like you can get lucky falling off a motorbike.
Ronin
by Donald Deluxe on 30 September 2011 - 16:09
"My SL GSD (German) is protective of us (me, especially.) While he has never been in the position to physically attack someone to protect us, if someone is acting suspicious around us, or if someone is around our property late at night, you can be sure that there will be a large black and red GSD in full on "get out of here" mode. He has never had any sort of protection training whether that be just alerting or actual physical force.
He also has been TT'ed by the ATTS, has his CGC, and is a herding dog so it's not "unstable nerves" or a "bad wired" dog acting aggressively."
And what's he going to do if I walk up to him and drive a size 11.5 steel-toed boot into his ribs? Fight or flight? You have no way of knowing, just as I don't with either of my two GSDs who have zero protection training. Barking at the gate is a far cry from serious combat with a larger, more powerful creature.
An untrained, unproven dog that barks and jumps around behind a fence is a deterrent and nothing more, and anyone who trusts such a dog to physically confront an aggressive human intruder without further evidence of what the dog will actually do is making a serious, perhaps life-threatening mistake.
He also has been TT'ed by the ATTS, has his CGC, and is a herding dog so it's not "unstable nerves" or a "bad wired" dog acting aggressively."
And what's he going to do if I walk up to him and drive a size 11.5 steel-toed boot into his ribs? Fight or flight? You have no way of knowing, just as I don't with either of my two GSDs who have zero protection training. Barking at the gate is a far cry from serious combat with a larger, more powerful creature.
An untrained, unproven dog that barks and jumps around behind a fence is a deterrent and nothing more, and anyone who trusts such a dog to physically confront an aggressive human intruder without further evidence of what the dog will actually do is making a serious, perhaps life-threatening mistake.
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