Schutzhund "full calm hard bite" (no fight?) - Page 1

I know I’ll get a lot of flak for this posting but I did so with the intent that I can hear the opinions of those of you who are much more knowledgeable that I.
 
So the rules in Schutzhund call for “ a full calm hard grip that prevents the helper from escaping”, nothing more.
 
When I look at videos of today’s best that is what I see. A dog hitting the sleeve with lots of speed/flash and that “full calm hard(?) bite” followed by the dog either running along with the helper, actually seeming to cooperate, with a beautiful side step on the escape or with a dexterous back step on the attacks. Nowhere do I see any effort on the part of the dogs to resist what the decoy is dictating. Looks more like a dance than a “fight”. The resistance is so little that the helper, on the escape, can sometimes actually pick up speed with the dog in full bite. Is it genetics telling the dog to hold on and that eventually that little bad sheep will tire and slow down and stop trying to run away or have we bred the “fighting drive(?) or whatever it should be called) out of these dogs”. The decoys don’t seem to be really challenged. Anybody who has seen a 75 lbs dog wrap his hind legs around a helper knows what I’m talking about. I’ve seen GSD’s completely lift their hind legs off the ground and the helpers take a nose plant or come into the helper and hit him hard with both front feet while getting a simultaneous bite on the sleeve. Today’s competition decoys can maintain a perfect posture during the whole routine. When is the last time you’ve seen a competition decoy have to get help from his other arm to keep the sleeve parallel to the ground? Should the dog not want to possess the sleeve, fight for it, claim for his own. What good is there in tasting of the fur of the prey but not getting to tastes it’s meat.
 
Take a look at the best ring sport dogs (gsd included) and look at the fight in these dogs. Is Schutzhund stifling the dogs with their rules? Seems in Schutzhund we call the dogs off to early to see if there is any fight in the dog.
 

To me, this is an awesome example of a great grip!

Thanks for your reply Kelly.

Does this mean that "it's all about the grip" and nothing more?

Im am not sure about whats desired from the grip in schutzhund. I have often wondered the same question you asked. Why is it so different than other sports?

It seems like they encourage the dog to be calm on the bite rather than fight the helper...Like here...



And in KNPV they encourage to bite very deep and fight.

Thanks again Kelly.

I'll check those vids out tonight when I have access to broad band internet.

Could someone answer what is the definition of a "calm" grip in schutzhund?

Does it mean...no head thrashing, no relasing, no shifting or trying to bite deeper?

The original shutzhund program was initially designed to evaluate the dogs for certain characteristics.  Of which, in the protection phase, the calm grip was to emulate the final death grip of a prey.  Since the schutzhund evaluation can not include live "prey" in this situation, the next closest was to design the routine to do this.  Picture a lioness hunting a prey on the african plains.  Upon grabbing the throat of the animal, you will notice no thrashing about from the lioness.  A calm grip squeezing and holding as the prey prances and run eventually giving way to the lack of oxygen.  As they prey is brought down, the lioness is calm, full grip around the throat until it's time to release the prey, which is now dead.  That, in my opinion, is what the whole issue is about.  The thrashing about, can only come from a lack of strong nerve at this point.

Interesting thoughts tenmon.   With large prey I've seen them hold to kill, and wolves do the same as well.  Though with small prey, I've seen videos of wolves, and even my own pack of Huskies take hold of the neck, shake and kill instantly.  I'm referring to things that have gotten into our fenced in/gated yard like rabbits,  cats,  squirrels,  chipmunks, racoons, etc.  I notice that in play, my guys teach what I've seen wolf packs do in taking down large prey and then killing it.  Just like taking down elk, large deer, or other decent sized animals......with wolves they tend to bite at the body or back legs, many times holding on to the back legs, rendering the animals back end useless causing it to fall....or if it doesn't cause it to fall, another member bites another area.  My pack does this in play,  Little Dude will grab ahold of Sierra's back leg, Buck will get the tail or other back leg, and then when she falls, one will grab ahold of her throat and hold....all in play of course.  It's interesting to watch.

Temon, thanks for your reply.

That does seem to be the classic explanation but what about a smaller predator (wolf) and a larger (moose) prey. Is not the "full calm bite" the first so called "submission bite", the drag down and "prevent further fleeing bite". What happens when the prey decides try to "escape" or even "fight back". If the predator then shakes the prey to try to break a neck or re-counters his bite in order to get a better grip on the spine in order to crush it. Is this a sign of poor nerves?

Are Ringsport dog continually recountering because of bad nerves. I don't think so. Some strong ring dogs will re-counter until they feel bone (decoy's bone that is) and then crush.

Some older schH vids of top dogs show, what seems to be full hard bites, but with a lot of body action and resistance. I'm not trying to be argumentive I just want to learn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqkBX2oGWOw&feature=related

 Check that out Koach