Opinion on Schutzhund prospect.. - Page 5

LOL Chaz, a shitter meaning.. ?

Hexe, thank you for your reply. You are correct, this has been my experience and that of others who share the same thoughts on puppy rearing, but, if I may be so bold as to inquire, what are the added benefits of pups remaining with the bitch passed 6 weeks?
Allow me to add in here that when I speak about these dogs, I am not reffering to pet dog owners, I am talking about experienced sport or serious working dog individuals.

Hexe and Hired Dog, I agree with both of you. Personally, the best dog I ever had was taken at 4 weeks...I took him and almost all of his litter. He was weaned a little after 3 weeks. They all turned out wonderfully, save one who is very DA, but the owner has cultivated that...purposely, believe it or not. Mine is 5 now and just for a reference point, was tested and passed for dual purpose w/a fairly large department. He was chosen for SWAT because the SWAT handler had tiny kids at home and this dog was the only one they had that could do it all and wasn't a liability. He has great genetics and I didn't screw him up, lol. So, it CAN be done and I do prefer to take them younger, but I can't say as though I recommend the general public do the same. I do allow certain people to take puppies from my home at 7 weeks. JMO, FWIW. 

Hired Dog, not so much remaining with the dam past six weeks, but rather with littermates until 8 weeks; most people aren't experienced enough to recognize that treating a 6 or 7 week old puppy like he or she is the second coming of the Sun God Ra is going to impress upon said pup that the universe revolves around him or her if the pup is of strong nature, nor are their lives set up in such a way as to not foster a feeling of isolation and abandonment when a pup that young is left by itself for hours on end while the people go to work or school or both if the pup is somewhat less independent by nature.  Leaving the pup with the littermates for an two weeks permits them to learn that life requires cooperation with others, and allows the pup to benefit from the 'strength in numbers' reassurance that having your siblings behind you creates as you venture off to investigate something new for the first time.  I do prefer to see littermates spend a good portion of their time apart each day once the pups reach that 10 to 12 week old point.

Good info on puppy rearing. For those who want to know, I've made an appointment with another local trainer for Thursday morning, he's a long time friend who I've worked with with all my dogs, I explained to him what was going on and he wants to evaluate the pup overall. So we will see what he suggests, :) he is a big time sport/real work trainer:) he is one of the few in my area who does work with both show and working lines, so I trust him.

Your asking alot from a puppy to be what YOU want and not what he IS. Your forgetting that at this age they go through all kinds of odd and sometimes dumb behavior. I would be careful to burn him out at this age and maybe just let him be a puppy. I had a super smart male that I did just that burned him out and he actually stopped working for me. Lesson learned there. I also dont believe in kennel only dogs ever. Dogs need bond time and what your describing is not enough time to do that and have confidence. He is so needy now I would think that your not being there is actually making things worse. If you have him inside and he still does what your describing after a month, then I would be concerned that what was previously mentioned is in fact genetics. Id consider doggy daycare maybe or have friends over to hang with you while your dogs are out.  Just because you want him to be a champion may not be what he is or even wants to be.

Bhaugh....I love your bunneh. House rabbit?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6hB9NTYD0E&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Hexe...I have a different opinion then you on puppies. I believe, as I stated earlier, that pups left together past 6 weeks will indeed develop dependency on eachother as well as animal aggression or sub issues because of the different genetic temperaments within the litter.
Having said that, I try REALLY hard to make any puppy I own believe that its the Center of the Universe and THE Sun God and Zeus all combined. That even carries further when I start training and building more and more confidence and give that puppy/young dog, a feeling of invicibility.

Please understand that while I never negotiate with my dog, I do make deals with it and the way I train, I win these deals, but, it all starts at 6 weeks for me.
I agree with you that most people are not equipped to properly deal with a puppy at any age, but, again, I am speaking of those that are serious sport/working dog people.
I have always purchased my puppies at 6 weeks and hopefully, I will have my next one here soon...we shall see when the litter is born and what it produces. Thank you again for your reply.

So first off I want to say that I do think it is great that you are seeking advise from others and you are trying to title your dogs before breeding them. I know this forum can be a rather cold and sometimes negative place so hang in there. That being said the post that you started off with "Echo" really shed some light on some things for me so I am going to try and help you out as best I can.

The lack of self confidence is probably genetic and due to lack of socialization. Some people think that because they have kids their dog will be good with kids so no need to get them around other kids. Or I have a dog so I don't need to get them around other dogs he will be good with other dogs because I have a dog. This just isn't true and it especially isn't true if your dog has a genetic tendency to be fearfull. I have seen it time and time again where that doesn't work. I am raising a puppy right now and I have two kids and I take that puppy to the elementary school every day to pick the kids up and I let the kids pet him. I also take him to my sons karate lessons and let the kids there pet him. I also sit outside of grocery stores and let those kids pet him. I also take him to skate parks and let the kids with helmets pet him. Get my drift? And that is just for kids. I make sure to get a puppy around as many new people/places/things as humanly possible. These experiences need to be good and confidence building. I take him everywhere people will let me and some places they won't. On trash day when I hear the trash truck coming I get him outside and play ball with him while the trash truck picks up our trash. I take him to home depot and seek out the fork lifts. If he seems scared or unsure I DO NOT tell him "its okay" and pet him. Never pet a puppy or dog when they are showing fear or anxiety. I don't feel sorry for him. I have him on lead and I calmly and confidently keep walking by the object (forklift, barking dog, skateboard, etc.) until he is also calm and confident. This sometimes can take several times and some people probably think "what the hell is she doing to that puppy" but I really don't care. It's what is best for the dog. I am not saying that every dogs needs this type of socialization but it will help with any "genetic" fearful shortcomings they may have which is probably what you are dealing with.

So a couple of other things you said that kind of sent up some red flags for me. One thing was "When I let him out of the kennel alone in the morning, i "love all up on him" and let him spaz out all over me, then I grab my tools and clean the kennel". Then you said "When he's "fighting" the helper and winning, and i'm told to gently pat his side and tell him good, he instantly releases the tug and turns around and spazzes out on me. Now we use verbal praise instead of patting." Okay so a few things here. First off I wouldn't let any dog "spaz out on me" and show the dog any affection. Chances are when you go to let him out of his kennel in the morning (before he sees you or knows you are there) he is calm. He needs to be calm before you let him out of his kennel. Think of being let out of the kennel as a reward. You need to start rewarding the behavior you want which is "calm" behavior. Then you "love all up on him" aka: reward him for "spazing out all over me". Then you wonder why when you touch him during training and he "spazes out on me". Also where you say "He will literally sit outside the kennel, his whole body shaking, will occasionally lay down, with a ridiculous amount of anxiety waiting for me to turn around and let him spaz on me again". Yes, you are right, that is exactly what he is doing. He has probably associated your affection with him being crazy because that is what you do with him first thing in the morning. So what you need to do, since he seems to be so "affection" driven is to give him affection when he is showing clam behavior. Don't let you dogs jump on you unless you invite them to. This is going to be hard at first because you have probably ingrained it in him to behave this way. After all, it is the first thing you do with him everyday. At first you are probably going to have to reward progress. But eventually you will get to the point where you only reward calm. This goes for everything. My dogs only get fed if they are laying down being completely calm. They only come in the house if they are completely calm. They only get affection (outside of training) if they are being completely calm. 

Another thing you said is you want him to be like "its okay Ma' i got this" which isn't a good thing for a puppy or an adult for that matter. I instill in all my dogs just the opposite "It's okay puppy, I got this". That is how they are going to learn how to handle themselves. This is probably why he spends so much time with your other dog that is confident. He is seeking that out and so you need to be the one that handles situations with a calm, confidence, and that you aren't going to put him in a situation that he can't handle.

Chances are you have seen his behavior get worse when you have "ignored" him because he is trying that much harder to get your attention. He is doing what has worked in the past. It is your job to teach him the ONLY time he gets rewarded is when he is showing calm behavior. 

It sounds to me like he also needs some energy burn off of him. You have to think about the average working dog, they were bred to work all day long. So a 30 minute run or 30 minutes playing with other dogs isn't going to do it. I use to run my "high energy" shepherd at least 1 hour twice a day when she was that age. That was on top of paying fetch, training, frisbee, and whatever other trouble she managed to get herself into. I crated her to give her "downtime". So she would relax. Excess energy can look like anxiety.

At the end of the day you really need to evaluate if this is the temperament of dog you want to breed. If you are an ethical breeder you should disclose to your buyers that the puppies he produces may have a tendency to be anxious, fearful, shy, etc. if not properly socialized and handled. 

Also, like you said, he is young and there are few dogs that "own the room" when they are 8 months old. You need to remember he is only 8 months old and all of this may be very overwhelming for him. Most of my dogs don't come into their own until they are about 3 or 4. Sounds like you haven't owned many dogs from puppyhood until 8+ years old so you haven't experienced all the different changes they go though. 4 months - 18 months in a dogs life is a tough time.

If this is your goal is a confident dog that is worthy of breeding I do think it is obtainable however, you are going to have to put some SERIOUS work into this dog. Hope you don't have a day job:) He needs some intense socialization along with exercise and re-evaluating the times at which you give him "reward". 

And of coarse this is JMO:)