Opinion on Schutzhund prospect.. - Page 6

Thank you Echo, I truly do appreciate that post. Its hard to get him 'calm'. As with most showlines, you sometimes have to work hard in getting them super excited about obedience. So maybe I've gone wrong in his obedience, in causing myself to have a HUGE praise/reaction and making his Sitz or Platz or Fuss to be the best thing since sliced bread. I notice now when I tell him to Sit, but I want to continue and our exercise isn't over, I reach down to pet him/acknowledge the good sit, but when I touch him he breaks form/jumps all over me and gets this gator snap/lick on every part of my body. He even has a problem laying in bed with me, god forbid I touch him and he gets all spazzy/licky/jumpy. He seems to not be able to 'just relax' and calm down. Another thing, when he jumps on me, he bites/nibbles any part of me he can. I've tried kneeing him, and because he's so soft it discourages him from coming near me after that (but he bounces back quickly) its not jumping on me that bothers me, its the fact that my whole upper body has bruises all over it from his nipping when he jumps up. IDK how to correct that without completely discouraging jumping up. Would he associate me correcting him for jumping/biting me with work on the training field? Like would he hesitate to jump/bite the helper? How would I even correct that behavior? The first male I had until he was about 2years old, and I don't ever remember going through this with him. I do unfortunately work 50hrs a week, usually 9-6 or 8-5. But I have weekends off so I can spend the days with them. Its a little harder during the week especially now with it getting dark so early, but I do get in at least an hour of either fetch or walk/jog/tug stuff with him. I am more than willing to put the time/effort into him, I just need to figure out how to work him and his desires/drives. Again that's why I came here, and will be seeing another trainer thursday morning to see what he says. This trainer lives close enough that I could do bi-weekly training with plus club, which would be good for the pup. I know I had expected a lot of an 8month old male, I guess I just wasn't prepared for this sudden change in him, but like I said I'm trying!

I doubt telling him not to jump and nip at you is going to make him hesitate to jump/bite the helper. Sounds like he already knows this activity and so he needs to keep that type of jumping/niping on the training field. I wouldn't let him jump on me unless I invited him to. He is also going though "puberty" so you are going to see some changes in his behavior also. I think it would be important to include the trainer in on your daily routine so he/she can get to the bottom of the anxiety and the over excitement when you touch him. Working 50 hours a week is a lot when you have 4 dogs. Especially if they are kenneled all day long. 

I'm not trying to suggest anything, that's just how it's coming across. You keep stressing that you haven't had to deal with this before, but keep in mind every dog is different, and a LOT of pups go through this stuff. I don't agree that getting the dog at 6 weeks is the problem. is he jealous when you're with the other dogs? Nothing that you've been saying shows a serious obsession, but if it is then ignore him. Like a big "NO" when he gets over-the-top and turn around and ignore him until the behavior stops and then pay attention to him and give a reward, if it gets back out of hands do it again. that's the only thing that I can think of, had to do it with my pup originally to teach her to not jump up (totally against kneeing deep-chested dogs to teach it) when she was a couple months because she would whine and bark and jump on me when she saw me, did that a couple times and she got the picture.  I do agree with Echo, you seem to unknowingly reinforce the behavior, and 100% agree with Echo on the "its okay 'ma i got this" situation. as for the nipping, have you tried when he does it a loud "OWWW" and over-dramatic actions like he hurt you? my friend's Golden Retriever pup does it and their trainer told them to do it. he may view you more as a littermate (jumping, nipping, whining, really really wanting to play) and wants to play just like he has with his littermates, and the actions he's doing has worked in the past.  

Echo,

Only 2 dogs are kenneled during the day, the shepherds. I live with my parents, their dogs are in the house during the day when my sister is home (usually everyday, and weekends etc) becvause they are calm, could care less about the cats, and could care less about moving (their dogs are BEYOND lazy) The shepherds are TOO much for her to handle in the house when I'm not there, she also has no interest in dogs in general so its been hard the times she has had my older female in the house when I'm not there, to teach her how to handle her. My parents do the whole "your dogs, you do the work, you take care of them, etc" Which I completely understand, The only time I ask them for help is if I have to stay late at work, I ask them to feed them. My dad is not a dog person (if it were up to him, we wouldnt have any dogs). So my dogs are my responsibility 100%. I love that they are outside all day enjoying the day. When I get home is usually when I feed them so I dont let them heavily exercise at night. Its usually all in the morning/mid day. Or on my days off, I do things with them all day like I said whether it is going in the field to run, going for traffic walks, etc. And usually do obedience as a bonding thing. And when theyre in the house its more just to relax, or try to!

He literally goes out of his way to put his mouth on me/nip me. At night when i feed him and i leave the kennel door shut to get his food ready, he jumps as high as he can up over the kennel door and grabs my arm or any body part in range. Im honeslty surprised he hasnt gotten my face yet.

I dont think making a huge OUCH/OWE/distress noise when hes got his mouth on me will do good, again maybe im just paranoid...but the last thing I want is to be at training and the helper lets out struggling noises and he releases.

When i try to talk to him and get him to calm down he thinks I'm mad at him and starts acting weird. Like if i hold him to me (the way we craddle when teaching the "out" with young dogs) he eventually thinks hes done something wrong. I guess I really dont know how to get him to be "calm" without thinking im mad at him, if my tone/body language changes slightly he gets "stand off-ish" like, my "normal" to him is super excited and happy and what not, when i "tone it down" he gets weird. So maybe i have unintentionally reinforced the behavior I'm seeing now, how could I go about helping it?

Im excited for tomorrow morning, if anyone wants to know the trainer I'm seeing tomorrow, its Mike Pinksten. Hes a long time friend and I trust what he will say in regards to it.

At this point, I am not leaning toward his insecurities as being "genetic" After talking with you guys and really thinking its putting into perspective that it WAS my unintentional encouragement of the behavior, and hopefully we can correct it and move forward.

I do appreciate everyones advice. :)

Does this pup show confidence on the training field?  How is his bite work?  I have learned that with some dogs no matter what you do, you cannot change their tempersment. I truely believe that good temperament is inherited. Some dogs have it; some dont.

Yes he shows great confidence in training, I guess I cannot complain there. Its just he is very sensitive to me, And I want to build his confidence in himself with/around me.

If he is confident on the field, I wouldn't worry. He's just handler sensitive. To some people, this is not a bad thing. I happen to like a dog that is more handler sensitive rather than handler aggressive or handler "aloof." 

Also, keep in mind that some lines mature at a slower rate, mentally. I have a bitch here that did not reach her confidence peak until she reached 20 months of age.

Did you get your eval?  Just curious what was brought to light if anything.

Hired Dog Said:
Ladies and gentlemen...let me interject here and state something that I repeat daily to people I work with and I mentioned in here last night as well in another thread. ALL the love, care, understanding and patience in the world will NOT and CANNOT change genetics. A dog either has it or it does not, end of. If it has it, it can be developed and brought out, if it does not, all you will do is frustrate and question yourself.
While the young lady asking this question is indeed young and may not have much experience, there is nothing wrong with "washing" a dog out of a program. Having said that, I will also add that when choosing a new candidate, either have someone with a lot of experience guide you or deal with a breeder you trust implicitly. Choose a dog for the particular sport/discipline you want to do and realize that show and real working dogs often dont mix.

Pay attention to this.  It is true.  The circling and looking to you is insecurity. 

Vomtreuenhaus said:
When I let him out of the kennel alone in the morning, i "love all up on him" and let him spaz out all over me, then I grab my tools and clean the kennel...it frustrates me that he will sit outside the kennel and not go "do his thing" ie poop/pee, or go sniff around at the new smells of the morning..or hell, go play with the chickens! (he likes to herd them and gets great joy in it when tehy do what he wants) He will literally sit outside the kennel, his whole body shaking, will occasionally lay down, with a ridiculous amount of anxiety waiting for me to turn around and let him spaz on me again. Trust me, I LOVE the bond he has with me, I just want to see him having more confidence in himself.

If you want to have him be more independent, the bolded part is NOT what you do  when you first meet the dog.  IGNORE him for 10 minutes.  IGNORE the spazzing all over you.  Go to work.  Do not even LOOK at him.  After you clean his keenel, then you pet him a bit and ruffle the back of his head.. and then give him something to do (like heel or whatever).  The fact that he will herd the chickens and not try to prey on them indicates (IMO) some of the dog's lack in prey drive.  IOW's combined with what hired dog said, you may have a dog who is great in tracking, great in obedience but who may fade in protection. 

When you buy a puppy it is ALWAYS a crap shoot.  ALWAYS.  This means you need to really LOOK at the genetics.  This means NO WEAK genetics.  No weak Male Tail, Female tail and so forth in the first 3 generations. 

Vomtreuenhaus said:
No he really has never done anything in need of serious correction. He responds really well to the "ah ah" noise if he jumps on the counter or something silly that i dont want him doing. Other than that, I've corrected him once for  reacting aggresively to another dog (and by that I mean I scruffed him quickly, said no, and released him and he was fine). 

More indication of a soft dog.  Trust me on this.. Scruffing a dog like this is VERY counterproductive.  Fact is any sort of aversive like this before a dog is one year old can really backfire.  Especially in a dog this soft. 

It is likely his 'aggressive' reaction was more defense than true aggression (prey or combat drive). 

Your dog MAY develop as he matures.  He may not.  I would give him until age 2 and a half.. and if he is not showing confidence by then, he is not going to show it.  A GSD needs to have good nerve, good courage, good drives in those areas (NOT defense).  If he does not show those things, regardless of the genetics behind him, or the beauty of his conformation, he is not a dog that should be passing on his genes. 

Remember.. a puppy is ALWAYS a crap shoot.

"Your dog MAY develop as he matures. He may not. I would give him until age 2 and a half.. and if he is not showing confidence by then, he is not going to show it. A GSD needs to have good nerve, good courage, good drives in those areas (NOT defense). If he does not show those things, regardless of the genetics behind him, or the beauty of his conformation, he is not a dog that should be passing on his genes. " This is why I have placed previous dogs that I bought with intentions of breeding. Anywho, He does not try to kill/eat the chickens because they are in "alcatraz" They are in a thick steel outside pen that is covered on all sides so nothing can get to them, he herds them from the outside. Its a thick steel mesh, so he can see them and smell them. There is NO doubt in my mind that he would kill them, and they are my dads pets so I would never take that chance. He gets fixated on them for long periods of time and moves them from the outside pen into the coup, then from the coup to the outside, and he will do that for hours. I should have been more clear in the first post. The thing is, when I let him out and ignore him for the 10-20 it takes to clean the kennels, he sits outside the kennel. He wont wander, he wont do anything. Or if I let him out and stay on the inside of the shed and clean the indoor kennels first, he will circle around the shed and jump on the door etc. In the bite work so far hes been VERY good, alot of prey/play drive and obviously have not done any defense what so ever. Its just when I touch him he loses all focus on what hes doing and has to be all over me. I got called into work earlier than I was scheduled yesterday morning so we recheduled until next week. But yesterday morning and this morning I did some things that were suggested here, Yesterday I didnt let him jump on me unless I invited him, he didnt nip me at all, and i had him out running for a good hour and did some fun tug stuff with him and did some work getting him to relax before I touch him, and when he starts getting crazy i ignore him, when hes calm I pet him (calmly, and keep my voice calm) So he definitely impressed me yesterday. This weekend I'm going to get him out to as many unfamiliar places as I can and do some confidence building stuff until I can see Mike. But i'm seeing my other trainer this Sunday so I will see what he says too. He really just may be slow to mature, part of his insecurities I know are my fault. I know he is a soft dog and until the next year or so or whenever he matures, we will see if he hardens up. But like it was mentioned, as as I truly believe in everything a GSD stands for, IF in the next year or 1.5 years he does not mature in confidence and nerve, then he will be neutered and placed regardless of how hips/elbows/dm comes back and regardless of how he places at shows. I'm not here to breed just to breed, I have ethics and goals and standards and I'm not going to be "that guy" that just breeds for the sake of it. If he cant do the work, I'm not going to make excuses for him. Period. He has strong dogs in his pedigree, especially in the father line. So we will see what comes through. I truly appreciate the advice and suggestions. I know some of the things are my error, but there is the probability that it his his genetics. Time will tell, and I am determined to do what I can to help him along and raise him/train him correctly. I'm in a working dog club (not a WDA/show club) My trainer is very honest with me in what he sees, so if down the road he sees that he is not going to do well going forward, then i will respect it.