Opinion on Schutzhund prospect.. - Page 8

"Keeping a puppy you intend to be working with you 24/7 will do more harm than good IMHO."

I've been to clubs where the idea was espoused that the dogs should spend most of their time in a kennel except when training and consider this a ridiculous notion for a breed that was intended to live and work with its family 24/7.  If such extraneous measures are necessary for a dog to prove its breed worthiness, is it really breed worthy after all?

Keith,

And how many people do you know that have their dog with them 24/7 that actively work them throughout that 24/7..and dont let them be lazy house dogs? How many people raise and imprint schutzhund/working puppies in the house and put pressure on them young via house manners, no chewing/jumping/constantly up the dogs a$$..etc and then expect that puppy to be a monster on the working field?

If you have a genetically solid dog, sure, great, theres nothing that can really mess it up or hinder it, may just take longer to bring out. But weaker, not genetically capable dogs that NEED not be allowed to be kept lazy and house pet that are expected to excell in high pressure work...I think a kennel lifestyle would be better suited for those types of dogs...take em out hot, put em up hot..

YES, the breed was designed to work 24/7 and be with its family in doing so. But times have changed, "bring your dog to the office day" is not exactly "herding hundreds of sheep through the fields".

Varies with dog, bloodline, and expectation.

I raise all my puppies the same, do the same imprinting and foundation work, so it was a matter of genetics.
 

Until and unless you've successfully raised and titled a few dogs, how can you claim that your foundation work hasn't created problems? It doesn't sound like you've had any pups long enough to raise them all the way to adulthood much less to title them.

I think the weirdest period in a pup's life is between 6 months and 12 months--drives and confidence levels are fluxuating so much during this period. I do stuff to build their confidence and to lay good foundations for work and to have a good relationship, but I think too many dogs, too many GSDs, are washed out before they are a year old.

I don't mean you should have a major project on your hands to build confidence--but it is *natural* for a young dog to duck head and ears when approaching a human. This is very much a normal puppy thing. Barking at not-so-strange things like vicious trash cans is also normal for pups in this age range. What I watch is recovery time and how the dog works through things. Not all bloodlines come into their drives at the same time. Some pups won't see their drive start to really surge until they are over a year. Some others will never get more drive than what they have at 8 weeks.

Christine

From previous discussion....

Beyond weaning the pups, the dam has NOTHING to offer them that is positive, keeping the litter together though has MANY negatives that will come back to haunt us later in life.
6-12 weeks is THE single most crucial socialization period in a dog's entire life. What it will learn/be exposed to then, will affect it for ever.


Also, this "bite Inhibition" lunacy is not something that happens while the pups are with the litter, its the handler's job to curb it or bring it out, plus, who wants bite inhibition on a sporting/working dog candidate?

I believe the key socialization period is 6-16 weeks, so not just up until 12 weeks.

I have seen pups learn good skills from interactions with their mom and other adults between 6 and 8 weeks. They learn a lot about canine social behavior and communication--what does a growl, a lifted lip, a play bow, a warning snap mean. I've seen mother dogs deliberately lie down in the middle of a group of pups and teach them what a growl means (so they learn it's a warning and to back off, and they learn it safely, from a dog who won't kill them with an overzealous correction).

I think pups at 6-8 weeks are really babies and need a lot of contact and interaction--if the person getting the pup is prepared to meet the pup's needs, I can see that working for the right person. Otherwise, 99% of puppy buyers are going to be better off leaving their pup with its siblings (as long as that is a good situation). At 8-9 weeks, most GSD puppies seem to be primed for bonding with their own humans. At the latest, I like to see puppies with their new people by 10 weeks if at all possible. If not, then hopefully the breeder is doing one-on-one interaction and socialization and not just leaving the puppies in a pen to wrestle with each other.

As far as pups together to learn from each other... I think littermate-to-littermate interaction is of gradually decreasing usefulness for a working dog prospect after 8 weeks. I think a lot of GSDs don't learn too much bite inhibition from each other--they seem to learn "oh, good, I made him squeal, let's bite harder"!

But I also think there's some major misunderstanding of what is meant by "bite inhibition" -- that is, it's learning to self-rate, self-inhibit, the force of a bite--it doesn't mean a dog won't bite, just that a dog learns to play more gently or more roughly depending on the playmate. They also learn that they can give a correction to another dog that isn't a full-force bite that is intended to do major harm. Later on, if that dog is raising her own puppies, she may know how to give a correction without breaking a skull. This transfers over to humans--say you trip over your dog (or say a neighbor's kid trips over your dog....), the dog can learn to give a warning bite not meant to cause major injury. If you want your dog to interact at all with other dogs or with any humans other than the main handler, I highly recommend that your dog learn some degree of bite control/bite inhibition.

With a schutzhund dog, you may encourage rough play very deliberately and may work to build a dog's confidence, especially in rough-housing and bite/tug play, but I firmly believe that it's still worth teaching a dog how to self-inhibit--and how not to self-inhibit--in order to live safely around humans and other dogs.

And, yeah, I've raised and titled more than one dog in schutzhund.

Christine

To clarify, I meant I keep the dog around me as much as possible unless I have other dogs that need my time as well (not that I keep it around other dogs 24/7 which I would not do with a sports prospect). I also tether like crazy and love a velcro dog and since I don't work when the dog is out it is almost always working if it isn't sleeping or eating or chewing/working on some sort of stimulating toy/treat.

Christine and Keith, Thank you both! 

I raise and title all of my dogs from pups and title and work them.  They live in my house and work their butts off.  I am not big on house manners for pups, I let puppies be puppies.  I do train them starting at 7 weeks, but it is motivational foundation training and imprinting.  I have my own system for raising working dogs.  I have raised and titled several dogs from pups and have never had any issues with poor temperaments or dogs lacking in drive.  Exactly the opposite.  My current dog is literally with me 24/7 and is never low in drive or desire when he comes out to work or comes out of the car. 

I teach my dogs to want to work; and focused high energy working gets them their reward.  I teach my dogs that I am the center of the universe and that being with me is fun.  My biggest problem is getting my dogs to run off and pee when I bring them to a field.  They are constantly pushing me to work.  That is how I like it, but that is just me and may not be for everyone. 

 So would this be giving them too much attention?. You could say I live with my dogs.

Bob, a bigger 'pig rail' (nothing personal, that's just what they're called) is needed here.  They need some space between you and the wall, if you roll over in your napping!

Other than that, I think you're showing acceptable attentiveness to them for their age.

Bob....I read this whole friggen thread while formulating something intelligent to say.....then your post.

Friggen hilarious.  Awesome.  Can i put that on Facebook?

Just made my day.

Live4:

     Have at it my friend.