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by yellowrose of Texas on 30 March 2012 - 06:03
by GSD Admin on 30 March 2012 - 06:03
It appears Hundmutter can makes paragraphs so might not be the same problem.
I noticed you uploaded pictures earlier so you must have a dashboard some of the time.
Hundmutter,
Are you using a moblie device? If you like you can PM me so we don't derail the thread further.
Send personal message to German shepherd dog
by Hundmutter on 30 March 2012 - 07:03
Good morning YR
I see someone else gets up early too. Thanks for your help.
by Abby Normal on 30 March 2012 - 08:03
HM
Possibly it is a matter of degree, I don’t know. I think what really ticks ME off is when people try and convince others that these very extreme constructions are largely ILLUSORY, and have no physical ‘consequences’, and that they are merely the result of a dog being flexed into an extreme stance. Those dogs are not even in particularly extreme/bad stacks. Stand them up naturally and you are still going to have grossly abnormal spines.
I too take Ibrahims point and thought he made it profoundly well in stating if he had to choose between a grossly sagging back and a grossly roached back he would choose another breed. We should have to choose neither THAT is the point.
I go back to Kevin’s dog – that is a beautifully constructed dog and one that no excuses have to be made for. So, before anyone suggests that it is a ‘SL’ argument – it is not. It is about not allowing this excess to get out of hand, and not accepting it as normal for the breed, which I fear is where we are headed, especially whilst people make excuses for it instead of facing it head on. BTW I also love the rear angulation on Kevins dog, which again is not excessive and contributes to his outstanding workability.
I answered your point about evidential linkage to disease: It is now routine in Germany to X Ray the spine in GSDs. What would this suggest to you? The SV commissioned a back study. The SV plays health issues very close to it’s chest indeed, always has. IMO this points to some significant orthopaedic issues having arisen – in relation to THE SPINE.
by Hundmutter on 30 March 2012 - 08:03
Time will probably tell.
by truckindog on 30 March 2012 - 11:03
I believe that to proceed and go forward firstly we need to agree on how a dog should be presented for assessment.
I have recently spent a couple of weeks studying a work by Louis Donald on Structure of the GSD and I'm very
grateful to him for sharing this work with us. I believe that the content is instructive and thought searching. If we stand our dogs in
a natural stance then a fair assessment can be made. I would say the same about a dog in movement most dogs whatever breed move
from a trot to a gallop at a time which is suited to their structure, so then why do we train dogs to gait at such an unnaturally fast pace.
We as humans have much to answer for in what we have bestowed upon the breed. On the plus side I believe that there is now a more
positive view to health checks and breed diversity which can only be a good thing. Finally below is a picture of my 11 month old dog.
As you can see the rear hock is about 1inch to far back which gives more slope to his back than is natural. Handler error not the dog.
Keep talking it's the only way forward. John Leadbeaterby Hundmutter on 30 March 2012 - 14:03
thought your Alsatians were the only way to go forward in this breed I'd have given up on it years ago.
A couple of further thoughts on the discussion that's gone before:
1) Re degrees of perception - there are critics of the GSD "out there" - and I've met several
of them - who would insist that even Kevin's dog has a "roached" back. (And probably query
his rear angulation as well). They may be sincere in their belief. They may genuinely believe
they say it for the health of the breed. Or maybe not, maybe they have some other agenda
going on? How do I tell ? Should I ignore everything I have observed and learned over the
years, and support them instead ? Where do I draw the line ? Or should I continue to believe
and promulgate what I believe based on my personal knowledge and experiences ?
Maybe I and my friends, et al, have been exceptionally lucky in that nothing thats gone wrong
with our dogs was clearly attributable to the shape of the topline.
2) German X-rays - I expect I know as much as anyone else about things the SV has been
accused of; but purely on this issue, and innocent until proved guilty 'n all that, surely the
routine check to see if there is "anything" is entirely different from the discovery that there
is a "something" ?
by truckindog on 30 March 2012 - 14:03
And herein lies the problem Hundmutter. You freely admit to your prejudice for type. The old additive of Alsatian is gone dead and buried the dog above is a GSD simple as. We must all work to a more moderate dog but retain quality and diversity the exaggerations are without doubt a detriment to the breed. I have a completely open mind on this but no one has yet given me an answer to the following." If we agree to the fact that a convex back line was never seen in early GSD 's then what advantage to function or health has it's introduction given likewise over angulated hind quarters"
Please if you haven't read Louis Donald work give it a look. He is most certainly not without qualification and standing in breed knowledge. John
by Hundmutter on 30 March 2012 - 16:03
dog press not so very very long ago, so please don't go down that road. There's a lot
more I personally would not want about your preferred type than their topline, but each to his own. I just dont think they are the 'only' way to go.
Yes I know Louis Donald says some sensible stuff, I probably have read the article of his that was
referred to earlier in this thread, I dont have a copy to hand. And I just don't find every thing
he says chimes with my own thoughts and experience.
I dont know that i DO agree to the statement that a convex backline was NEVER seen in
early GSDs - it depends on which pictures you are looking at, of which dogs, and how you
interpret convex (as illustrated by what I just said about critics at different levels of what
they find acceptable). [I could offer a critique of Kevin's dog - and it would not be a 'bad'
one, I don't think it looks like a table ! - but I would not be saying I thought that topline
in any way roached.]
by Hundmutter on 30 March 2012 - 16:03
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