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by Abby Normal on 30 March 2012 - 16:03
Linda, we are talking about 2 specific dogs, not the shape of a 'moderate' topline. However, spines as evidenced by more dogs recently are becoming more rounded, and dogs of 10 years ago were far more moderate in their toplines than those of today.
If however what you believe based on your personal experiences allows for the most grossly abnormal dogs (those under discussion) to be dismissed as 'overbuilt', and their distorted, exaggerated shape 'mainly illusory' due to the stack, maybe you should give up on the breed. Time to orient ourselves as someone said earlier as to what is 'normal', or we will find ourselves with more exaggeration creeping in and being accepted.
John's dog is not necessarily my 'type' either, but if you allow type to prevent you from recognising good features that in itself is a problem. To John's credit I did not see him making any negative remarks about WGSL dogs.
If you are really in such a turmoil then I think you should read Louis Donald's work. It explains a great deal on the anatomy of the GSD, and the history behind the change in the GSD shape and the mechanics of movement, and also the stresses caused by overangulation. It is as others have said probably one of the best and most comprehensive papers ever written.
Re your comment on the SV. The SV aren't being accused of anything here, quite the opposite in fact. But no, they don't commission health studies 'to see if something might be there' on a whim, nor do breeders X - Ray in case they 'might' find something, just for a lark LOL - would you? Have you suddenly decided to x-ray your dogs spines, just for the heck of it ? There is always a reason, much as I can see you would like to believe otherwise. It's obvious really with the numbers of GSDs, that problems will surface there before anywhere else. E
Edited to add: Just saw your last post. I would be very interested to hear a critique of Kevin's dog from you, just so I can orient myself as to where you are in terms of what you see as 'normal' or correct for the GSD.
If however what you believe based on your personal experiences allows for the most grossly abnormal dogs (those under discussion) to be dismissed as 'overbuilt', and their distorted, exaggerated shape 'mainly illusory' due to the stack, maybe you should give up on the breed. Time to orient ourselves as someone said earlier as to what is 'normal', or we will find ourselves with more exaggeration creeping in and being accepted.
John's dog is not necessarily my 'type' either, but if you allow type to prevent you from recognising good features that in itself is a problem. To John's credit I did not see him making any negative remarks about WGSL dogs.
If you are really in such a turmoil then I think you should read Louis Donald's work. It explains a great deal on the anatomy of the GSD, and the history behind the change in the GSD shape and the mechanics of movement, and also the stresses caused by overangulation. It is as others have said probably one of the best and most comprehensive papers ever written.
Re your comment on the SV. The SV aren't being accused of anything here, quite the opposite in fact. But no, they don't commission health studies 'to see if something might be there' on a whim, nor do breeders X - Ray in case they 'might' find something, just for a lark LOL - would you? Have you suddenly decided to x-ray your dogs spines, just for the heck of it ? There is always a reason, much as I can see you would like to believe otherwise. It's obvious really with the numbers of GSDs, that problems will surface there before anywhere else. E
Edited to add: Just saw your last post. I would be very interested to hear a critique of Kevin's dog from you, just so I can orient myself as to where you are in terms of what you see as 'normal' or correct for the GSD.
by Hundmutter on 30 March 2012 - 16:03
noddi
22nd April - I don't know yet; might well try to get there, will 'stop by' if I do. LS x
22nd April - I don't know yet; might well try to get there, will 'stop by' if I do. LS x
by Hundmutter on 30 March 2012 - 16:03
AN
Thanks for that.
The only turmoil I feel in is that one of beating my head against brick walls.
If I ran the SV I might just capitulate to all the noise.
Thanks for that.
The only turmoil I feel in is that one of beating my head against brick walls.
If I ran the SV I might just capitulate to all the noise.
by Abby Normal on 30 March 2012 - 16:03
HM
Just added to my last post.
Just added to my last post.
| Edited to add: Just saw your last post. I would be very interested to hear a critique of Kevin's dog from you, just so I can orient myself as to where you are in terms of what you see as 'normal' or correct for the GSD. |
by Hundmutter on 30 March 2012 - 17:03
Depends on Kevin.
If he says I can, I will - but bear in mind it will be limited, this is from the photo, and I'm not a
Judge. BTW I have always preferred and stuck up for the US working lines dogs constructions over that of the American show lines.
If he says I can, I will - but bear in mind it will be limited, this is from the photo, and I'm not a
Judge. BTW I have always preferred and stuck up for the US working lines dogs constructions over that of the American show lines.
by VonIsengard on 30 March 2012 - 18:03
I can't believe in eight pages of comments no one is screaming this yet.
A straight back and a level topline are not the same thing.
Some of the "straight back" examples being posted here are not straight backs at all, they are level toplines. Often in level toplines you will have a defined break behind the wither, even sagging. Everytime I see someone advertising "straight back gsd puppies" my eyes bleed. Nine times out of ten the seller has NO idea what a straight back is.
Second of all, a high wither, correct angulation, and correct length/position of croup resulting the so-called "sloping" topline does not equal a roach.
It is correct that a roach is definied as an upward curvature of the spine. Like many other anatomical faults, some can be minor to the pont to negligibility or severe to the point of the dog being completely unsound. Minor anatomical faults are to be expected as a natural occurence in breeding as one seeks to balance their line in body and mind. No dog is flawless. Severe faults, however, have no place in the in the show ring or a breeding program and sure as hell won't fly in any honest working venue.
Here is an example of a dog with a level topline, but not a straight back:
Not the best shot of the dog, but his owner doesn't have a need to stack him. Note the break behind the wither, he also has a lack of firmness through the back, particularly in movement, which you'll have to take my word for. I actually know the dog, and called his owner for permission to use his photo as an example, rather than swipe some poor person's dog from the internet to rip apart. Not working or showline, an American pet type breeding. Incidentally, this dog also has severe HD. He also has a lovely personality and is well loved, something that should be considered before ripping apart the dog of someone you don't even know, as this board is so wont to do.
I always find the claim interesting that dogs with "straight" (when they really mean level) supposedly produce less HD. Another marketing ploy. If it were true, in labradors, golden retreivers, mastiffs, newfoundlands and all other large but "straight" (again, a misuse) backed dogs HD would not exist. Even some heavily over-angulated AKC show type dogs come back OFA good and excellent plenty of the time. Not enough, in my opinion, but you get my point.
On the top of the third page, Kevin Nance posted a good example of a dog with a straight back but not a level topline. Here is another example, another west german showline; with a clear stack you see it better:
This bitch is V rated with a ZW 77. She lacks the front reach to really wow in the show ring, but damned if that isn't a nice strong topline.
These discussions will only go in circles until the correct terminology is understood.
A straight back and a level topline are not the same thing.
Some of the "straight back" examples being posted here are not straight backs at all, they are level toplines. Often in level toplines you will have a defined break behind the wither, even sagging. Everytime I see someone advertising "straight back gsd puppies" my eyes bleed. Nine times out of ten the seller has NO idea what a straight back is.
Second of all, a high wither, correct angulation, and correct length/position of croup resulting the so-called "sloping" topline does not equal a roach.
It is correct that a roach is definied as an upward curvature of the spine. Like many other anatomical faults, some can be minor to the pont to negligibility or severe to the point of the dog being completely unsound. Minor anatomical faults are to be expected as a natural occurence in breeding as one seeks to balance their line in body and mind. No dog is flawless. Severe faults, however, have no place in the in the show ring or a breeding program and sure as hell won't fly in any honest working venue.
Here is an example of a dog with a level topline, but not a straight back:
Not the best shot of the dog, but his owner doesn't have a need to stack him. Note the break behind the wither, he also has a lack of firmness through the back, particularly in movement, which you'll have to take my word for. I actually know the dog, and called his owner for permission to use his photo as an example, rather than swipe some poor person's dog from the internet to rip apart. Not working or showline, an American pet type breeding. Incidentally, this dog also has severe HD. He also has a lovely personality and is well loved, something that should be considered before ripping apart the dog of someone you don't even know, as this board is so wont to do.
I always find the claim interesting that dogs with "straight" (when they really mean level) supposedly produce less HD. Another marketing ploy. If it were true, in labradors, golden retreivers, mastiffs, newfoundlands and all other large but "straight" (again, a misuse) backed dogs HD would not exist. Even some heavily over-angulated AKC show type dogs come back OFA good and excellent plenty of the time. Not enough, in my opinion, but you get my point.
On the top of the third page, Kevin Nance posted a good example of a dog with a straight back but not a level topline. Here is another example, another west german showline; with a clear stack you see it better:
This bitch is V rated with a ZW 77. She lacks the front reach to really wow in the show ring, but damned if that isn't a nice strong topline.
These discussions will only go in circles until the correct terminology is understood.
by live4schutzhund on 30 March 2012 - 18:03
Demand, money, greed, envy...and again money, or lack thereof. So many different opinions, emotions, and interpretations.
Imagine you were all standing in a big room with your animals, a poster board listing your accomplishments in the breed along with achievements of your dogs and you were having this conversation face to face. Probably would go a little bit differently.
For those of you that are breeders, ask yourself this. Am I breeding dogs I like that will make the breed better, or, am I breeding dogs I have grown to like because that is all I can afford....
I bet most of the time the answer is the latter, in which case that blind greed/ignorance would fuel your delusion of what is correct and what is not because you know you will never be able to attain it.
I read allot of adversarial SL vs WL conversations on here but I bet, once again, if you were all in the same room, its more like people with dogs that should not be bred against everyone else.
I have talked to accomplished WD people talk with so much disgust about SL dogs all the while looking at the ugliest dog I have ever seen, but hey, he's SchH3 and scores high in trial....
I have heard SL people talk about ugly WL dogs with a pompous air while their SL stud males work the field more like a fancy female.
You get in those conversations where you start feeling violated because someone seems to love using the word bitch 50 times in a 30 minute conversation. Unrelated but it bugs me.
A very successful breeder of both SL and WL dogs told me something once and I will never forget it. "In general, breeding working dogs attracts people with no money who think they know everything. I breed WL for my own training stock and for those of my club members and friends."
In the end, regardless of WL, SL, roach back, flat back, etc etc etc.....its about money. For the rare few who have an exceptional animal, trial and show over and over for the love of the breed AND.....never produce a litter or sell a dog, I commend you. You are the exception to the rule. For the breeders doing it right regardless of WL or SL, making money or not, I commend you too.
Imagine you were all standing in a big room with your animals, a poster board listing your accomplishments in the breed along with achievements of your dogs and you were having this conversation face to face. Probably would go a little bit differently.
For those of you that are breeders, ask yourself this. Am I breeding dogs I like that will make the breed better, or, am I breeding dogs I have grown to like because that is all I can afford....
I bet most of the time the answer is the latter, in which case that blind greed/ignorance would fuel your delusion of what is correct and what is not because you know you will never be able to attain it.
I read allot of adversarial SL vs WL conversations on here but I bet, once again, if you were all in the same room, its more like people with dogs that should not be bred against everyone else.
I have talked to accomplished WD people talk with so much disgust about SL dogs all the while looking at the ugliest dog I have ever seen, but hey, he's SchH3 and scores high in trial....
I have heard SL people talk about ugly WL dogs with a pompous air while their SL stud males work the field more like a fancy female.
You get in those conversations where you start feeling violated because someone seems to love using the word bitch 50 times in a 30 minute conversation. Unrelated but it bugs me.
A very successful breeder of both SL and WL dogs told me something once and I will never forget it. "In general, breeding working dogs attracts people with no money who think they know everything. I breed WL for my own training stock and for those of my club members and friends."
In the end, regardless of WL, SL, roach back, flat back, etc etc etc.....its about money. For the rare few who have an exceptional animal, trial and show over and over for the love of the breed AND.....never produce a litter or sell a dog, I commend you. You are the exception to the rule. For the breeders doing it right regardless of WL or SL, making money or not, I commend you too.
by Blitzen on 30 March 2012 - 21:03
Moved to the right thread.
by Blitzen on 30 March 2012 - 21:03
Moved to the rigth thread.
by djc on 30 March 2012 - 23:03
vonisenguard,
I did bring that up but not in those terms. What I said was the difference between horizontal straight back, and one that descends vertically in a straight line to the tail. Different terms. And yes it is an important point.
Debby
I did bring that up but not in those terms. What I said was the difference between horizontal straight back, and one that descends vertically in a straight line to the tail. Different terms. And yes it is an important point.
Debby
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