What does a straight back gsd and roach back dog look like - Page 4

"what must the internal organs of that one with the extreme hinge look like

Linda - I didn't mention 'internal organs'.

What I said was ‘when you visualise the anatomy within and it's placement’.

If anybody thinks that such an abnormality has no effect on internal anatomy but is purely a ‘visual’ issue, then we have our eyes and minds closed.

Every part of the body is linked and is required to be in the optimum position for all internal structures to work efficiently and in harmony. If you look at this dog and visualise where and how joints, muscles and ligaments are situated internally, I don’t consider that they are in a remotely normal or optimum position for health. The breed has conditions like Cauda Equina Syndrome and TVS which are thought to linked to conformation, and these are examples of potential effects of internal anatomy changes not obvious to the eye.

If you take brachycephalic breeds for example, their internal anatomy is severely compromised by numerous problems which are not evident externally, other than their extreme shape. Perhaps that has cleared up the intent of my comment.  

Abby, I totally agree with you. Here is the skeleton of an old-fashioned, straight backed GSD for comparison.




And here is the roach backed dog, from Linda Shaw's site:




Linda is planning to show how the roach affects the underlying anatomy, but has not yet gotten around to posting that article. The SV has become concerned enough about the effects of the roach that they have begun to x-ray spines. The roach DOES affect the alignment of the bones in the spine and the hips. As Linda says,

 

I think of the spine as the cornerstone of the dog, the architecture that is the foundation of the dog’s structure.  If it is normal, the rest can’t be too bad (according not to some show standard, but to nature’s requirement for how a dog should function). If the spine is not correct, whether too long or too short, swayed or roached, it can affect the proportions and function of the entire body.

In the German shepherd breed, roached backs are a problem, and have been for decades. It’s obvious from show critiques that many judges do not understand the anatomical structure of a roached back, and why it is wrong.  Hundreds of roached dogs appear in breed magazines with critiques praising their strong backs. Recently a photo of a young dog made the rounds of the internet, with discussions about her topline. Some commentator suggested that, because her midback did not rise above her withers, her back was therefore not roached. She is a very nice female and I like her, but her spine is roached. This person could see only the visible back, which was not humped, but could not visualize the spine underneath, which was.

Link: http://www.shawlein.com/


 

Sunsilver, have you seen any sketches of a roach back showing the skeleton?  I don't think all roaches are exactly the same.

As I said, Linda is planning to post that on her site. For now, the only one I can think of that does show it is Jantie's infamous 'sinking' skeleton, which was widely ridiculed on this site.

My version of the skeleton no longer is animated, or I would post it, and I don't have a direct link to it. I'll have to hunt for it. :(

Edit: I found the animation, but it is not what I'd hoped for. It doesn't show a roached back, just how the hips of the GSD have sunk down in the showlines. I f you want to view the skeleton at any particular point, just stop the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MguVPTbCmjQ&feature=channel 

Linda, you minimize the deformity by calling it over- built. You criticize those of us who take exception to people producing such deformed animals in a breed that is not supposed to have any extremes in conformation. Attempting to justify the practice of breeding extreme and deformed gsd's prevalent in the GSL is akin to justifying animal cruelty, in my opinion.

Joanro: Ibrahim, that's the logical result of breeding extreme to extreme. There are a lot of good SL dog's out there, but they are usually the ones over looked by judges.

Agree.  I believe those normal looking showlines (with straight/level backs), would in turn be sold by the breeders as "pet quality", with a non-breedable registration.  Taken out of the gene-pool for good !  And then concentrate the gene-pool with these roachy, drag-hocks-on-the-ground abominations.

Wow, those roaches are not even slightly acceptable.  Even to the showline folk. No one that I work with has ever breed with that type of topline in mind.  I have never seen a GSD with that type of topline. Ever. (photos of the deformity yes) I hope that people on the forum realize the photos shown are not typical of a roach but rather an extreme.  Linda Shaws example of a roach is what is currently being presented, that I see all the time in BOTH showline and working line dogs.  It is important to point out that those dogs are extreme examples not the norm.

Brynjulf, Linda's example of a roach back may be the current 'norm' but READ WHAT SHE SAYS ABOUT IT!

I've been saying this for years. It is NOT correct, does NOT make the back stronger, and predisposes the dogs to problems. It totally misunderstands how a 4-legged animal is designed to move.

aakay, you must not know the same SL breeders I know since I know plenty who would not eliminate flat backs from their breeding program.  How long has it been since you visited with a SL breeder and saw their breeding stock or attended an SC show? I assume your opinion isn't just based on what you see here on photos of these exteme dogs.

There was a very big working dog class at CWD last weekend and all but one had relatively flat toplines.

Brynjuf, good point on roach appearing in both show and work lines in the show ring. But remember, the work line in the ring is competing with show lines, so it would stand to reason they will resemble the show lines. I believe the pictures of the very extreme dogs posted here were taken from pop up adds on this forum. I see them on here so many times, that I believe they are the majority of adds coming up. So, unfortunately, the very extreme and deformed examples are not so rare. I used to joke about them, that anyone selling these poor things can call them top this or great that. Now I notice so many that I'm appalled by the sight of them. Also, I doubt that anyone breeds "for" this deformation. However, deliberately breeding extreme to extreme can only end up with the tragic results seen in the adds here.