Best breeding dogs don't win big events - Page 4

not sure what you mean here rik , but fact is that many pups are sold and bought over the name and fame of the father and will never live up to the expectations .

ibrahim , competitions are won by the best trained dog period. this has nothing to do with breedingquality.

I'm not saying anything against Javir, personally, just to be clear. He just came to mind as an example because everyone was clamoring to get a Javir pup, and now they seem to be a dime a dozen and I haven't heard anything remarkable about the ones being sold. I almost bought a daughter of his a while back- not because of her sire, but because of the way she was described. I'm not saying he can't and hasn't produced nice pups- I'm just saying that being a top winner may not make him a top breeding dog. The one I almost bought, I didn't know immediately that she was a Javir daughter. My only point was that here's a big name flavor of the week type dog who seems to have kind of faded away and not many notable progeny are on the horizon, so far as I can tell. I see MANY Javir pups for sale between 7mos-2yrs old at very reasonable prices. 

My only "experience" with any Javir progeny is secondhand (one of my pups trains w/a Javir pup) so this is not gospel truth; this is just my perception and an example I used. Javir may be a fantastic dog who has simply been bred to weak/average females. MANY breeders take a subpar female and breed her to any big name they can just to sell pups on the sire's name alone. I have had people suggest I take Capri to Mr. Famous so-and-so, but that's not really my goal, to breed to the big name dogs. I want to breed to the dog who will complement her the best and I don't care where I find that dog or how famous he is, or isn't. 

Anyway, I do understand what Nadeem's TD is saying, but that may be because I know him and can kind of read between the lines on some of it. If I had no idea who he was or what his experience has been, I think that statement could be interpreted very differently (as it has been.)

Duke

Your dog has a SCHH title, mine does not. Can I claim my dog is better than yours when there is nothing to prove that?
When it comes to breeding, the best titled dog might and might not be the best producer.
No unknown dog will become a good producer and contribute to the breed if people won't hear of him through his achievements and bring their bitches to him.

Ibrahim

Ibrahim, contributing to the breed does not necessarily mean saturating the gene pool with a certain famous dog. That can have the opposite impact on the breed... Contribution to the breed in a positive way can be very subtle.

duke, what I am saying is that people who actually have recognized accomplishments with their dogs (in whatever venue they choose), understand what you said. People who do nothing, in time or resources invested, have no idea.

Most people breed to the "flavor" dog because (1)it has achieved the goals they seek or because (2) the pups sell well and they have no goals other than selling pups. I do think the biggest reason is #2.

Dogs become famous for a reason, and no matter the person/trainer/handler/breeder behind the dog, there has to be something there (in the dog) to begin with.

That folks breed their "so-so" female to a highly accomplished dog expecting the same greatness is a whole other story.

jmo,

Rik

Jenni nobody is saying you are crap talking Javir.. I only say..one male looks great and he has a bright future if he pulls through. I know of one dog.. for now.

I know; I just didn't want anyone to think I had some personal knowledge of him or his pups and had reason to not  be impressed. Lots of people read these threads and have no background to go with them and take things too seriously or out of context. 

Duke, I'm sure that is a factor. I just see so many ads for dogs around a year, it makes you wonder.

Ibrahim , you have to look at the dogs and not at there scorebooks when you make breedingchoices , and im sure that some of my untitled breedingdogs are better dogs and producers than many titled dogs out there, but not on paper, but genetics dont listen to what a judge wrote on a piece of paper

very important is however to recognize that you cannot hold every famous male responsable for the quality of the  puppies of every crappy bitch bred to him