Best breeding dogs don't win big events - Page 5

I had this discussion this week with somebody from an armyK9 unit from a certain country chaz , they once set  up their own breedingprogram and bought a lot of titled females and started breeding them to good males in the K9 unit, and the result was bad and they stopped that program , breeding is much more than putting titled dogs together

True just because a dog hits number 1 doesnt mean he will turn out to be the best producer,proof is in the puppys he can have no title and produce very well,great trainers can also mask  alot of so so dogs to get pretty good scores at times,once in awhile a dog that hits number one does end up in time beiing known as a top producer but this is an exception to the norm.Tom comes to mind that did it and it so happened to be that his sons also came to be known as nice producers,but great producers like Fero,Troll,Yoschy,Mink,Rocky,Aly,Karn etc I dont recall any of them hitting number 1 but where great producers in thier own right,one should examine a stud very closely wether they won a top title or not, but the best way of knowing for sure is by testing and bringing top quality females to the male in question and seeing the proof in the offspring

Duke,

I understand what you're saying but not sure what I'm saying was put clearly. I will seperate my idea in two parts.

1. Where possible titling and working a dog is essential to evaluate and know what you have in your hands, no titles and no specific job for the dog then no one can tell good/worthy from bad/unworthy.
If it is possible for a dog owner to train, title and work the dog then it is a good thing to do, for the owner, dog and breed in general.
Titling as I understand is the minimum requirement for breeding a dog in Germany and it's a good thing as we can see which dogs passed the tests and which didn't. A dog which passed necessary tests is better than a dog which failed.
An untrained or untitled dog could be a better dog than a trained or titled one, but owner of such dog can not claim it is indeed better since there is no proof (testing).

2. Breeding, this is only important and is headache for the breeder to look for a good producer to match his bitch/bitches and it is upto the breeder to decide which stud to use depending on his/her own goals of breeding, a breeder who sells names would never produce a top dog of his own as the goal is the easiest way to sell the puppies. A breeder who wants to improve his dogs/breeding program would choose the best matching stud for his/her female that suits his/her vision and has a better chance and probabilities to produce at least useful dogs.

A breeder who does not title and compete has lesser chance in coming up with a stud of his own who will become a great producer and contribute to the breed as a whole as few would breed to the unknown stud even if the stud is in fact a better dog/producer than the "flavor of the day".

A breeder who wants to take the easy way and is not committed to title and train his/her dogs has no right to claim his/her dogs are better than the other breeder's titled and trained dogs simply because he/she know the dogs and what they can do.

I read few posts where the theme was "titles are not all", "titles mean nothing", in a way to justify not titling, that I think is not right.

its a thin line ibrahim that works both ways ,the fact that in germany you need a titled dog to breed in itsself is good but in the same time it makes people cheat , buy titles,go to esy judges and/or title with minimum passing scores.

this takes away credablity from the good dogs and the system of SV

then there is a second issue

first one is , is this dog worth his titles
second one , is this dog the best breedingpartner for my female

in the first case we dont have to question if the top and flavour of the day males are worth there titles, they definately are , but the females they breed , all 300 of them , are they??

in the second case there is a bigger problem


now if I see a very good male in a club or somewhere that can bring what I need on my female , I ask for healthtests and thats good enough for me as the titles only show me how well he is trained
to give an example I bred to Amigo Zamat who is titled but doesnot have korung , I have very good dogs from him , now after the worldchampionships many wanted to breed to him ,also german topbreeders , but non of them did because of no korung

so they liked the dog who is on worldchampionshiplevel but because of papers they dont use him

thatsthe difference were I say I breed dogs not papers

but thats another story than people pushing out pups for money without titles regardless of  anything as long as there are pups to sell

duke


I completely agree with you.

here many breeders bred to the dogs that does well in either competion ,BSP, WUSV  and dogs with high marks in the competions

many breeders dont test anything else about the dogs that the HD/AD and offcourse the marks

not many dogs are tested in different enviroments or if they have what it takes to work outside the field ,

good marks in a competion is not the dog but the handler

this is a danish Javir son

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/184183/Jabina-Gustav 

I saw Gustav when he did that routine.....:-) You knew he wasn't going to out! Javir was bred to every peice of crap imaginable...you're surprised there are plenty of progeny for sale....some people bought pups to eventually resell. BITCHES make the dog world go round:-) A combination of genetics determines the good vs the bad....surprises abound. I own a Jimbeam son...Javirs' brother...(not the podium dog but same genetics) his dam is linebred on Mink...and Arek vom Stoffelblick...one of the nicest dogs I've ever had. There are plenty of nice dogs being bred that are not podium dogs...

Gustav is very popular in Denmark  but so was the Ellute and Eros brothers and Tom vant Leffdahlhof I very much think that its the trainer of these dogs that are that good not the dogs

And lets not forget that some traits of a breeding dog you breed for skip a generation and show up in the progeny. Breeding sucks sometimes. I still this day keep fighting with my friends when I tell them NO to breeding my male to particular female. Yes the female is outstanding and we can try but the pedigrees don't match and some actually are the completely wrong breeding to do. And sometimes breeding doesn't work out, genetics are a bitch....


Some of the people I have dealth with think my male will produce superdogs with any female. Well shit he is no miracle maker. LOL

Breeding is not all science, some breeders are gifted and some have a sixth sense, I hear this a lot.

There's an old saying, " you breed to the grandparents" . In other words, look at the grand parents to see what your breeding will produce. I have seen evidence of this many times. Watching a young dog developing that I've produced, and noticing such close similarities to the grand parents that the old adage comes to mind. A good example, though in horses, is Secretariat. He was known to be a brood mare producer. Meaning that his direct get were not great performers on the track, but his grandkids out of his daughters were. This is the "skip one generation" often referred to in some of these discussions.