WL + SL = BL??? - Page 1

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nypiper127

by nypiper127 on 11 May 2012 - 23:05


BL meaning "Balanced line" HA! I have been reading some threads on genetics and the old WL vs SL arguments. Without beating a dead horse, I would like to ask the obvious question. Now before I ask said question, I would like to reiterate that I said "reading" about genetics. I did not say "understanding". This humble civil servant will have to read it some more and read it again and ask some more stupid questions before he understands it just a little!
I currently own a half Czech half West German SL that by pure luck has everything I require in my GSD. He has the classic "saddle back" look but his tan color is darker in color like WL colors. His focus and drive is amazing and his temperament is perfect (IMHO with 4 kids in house). I do not do schutzhund (see 4 kids) but I know he could. The president / helper of my local club evaluated him three yrs ago and agreed that he had drive, focus and potential. His obedience is impeccable...but I am bragging now...HA. Before becoming interested in shutzhund, I thought WL GSDs were ugly and looked like junk yard dogs (please remember this is my opinion not a knock). After watching these dogs work, I quickly forgot how "ugly" I thought they were and was amazed by their athleticism (which = beauty) on the field. I still however love the saddle back look with a preference for a plush coat. So here is the question:
With the amount of knowledge and experience out there (as evidenced by this site), why aren't there more breeders moving towards the happy medium? Why can't I easily find breeders that are mixing both...giving me the SL look with WL drives (that are not "off the hook"). Or, why can't those that like the WL look get the same with SL gait structure etc? I would like to add a few things before everyone tears me apart for being such a simpleton.
1) I believe a sound balanced temperament is THE most important aspect of any dog, GSD or not, WL or show line.
2) I believe (as mentioned in previous threads) that breeding for a specific quality can be detrimental to the breed in the long run.
3) I also believe there is nothing wrong with having an "aesthetically pleasing" dog! If I have to look at the bugger for 12+ years...I may as well enjoy it! I never understood why some people think that is wrong!
One final note...and this is by no means original...A woman posted on an earlier thread (and I apologize for not getting her name) that while our GSD WL and SL sides were busy picking each other apart, the malanois was busy taking over...I loved that post!
Can't we all just get along?  Ha
Can't
 
But seriously, and again I apologize if this has been covered, is there a movement towards the middle?  Or am I clueless?
As the above mentioned 4 kids are now moving on to college, I plan on getting a dog that can perform easily on the shtz field...but looks great (to me).  If you know of any reputable breeders combining both please let me know (pm or on board). Any good books articles on canine (GSD) genetics, Im interested.  

Rik

by Rik on 12 May 2012 - 01:05

hello ny, the short and sweet answer is wl + sl most often = pl. that sounds like what your are looking for. good luck and hope this helps. I can provide more links if needed. It's a never ending debate around here.

best,
Rik

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/bulletins.read?mnr=244140&pagen=3#244330


http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/bulletins.read?mnr=433036&pagen=4#433211

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/bulletins.read?mnr=278013&pagen=5#279011

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/bulletins.read?mnr=344187&pagen=4#344864

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/bulletins.read?mnr=345190&pagen=4#345511

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/bulletins.read?mnr=527756&pagen=3#527841

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/bulletins.read?mnr=81294&pagen=2#81353

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/bulletins.read?mnr=338781&pagen=2#338904

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/bulletins.read?mnr=85440&pagen=2#85459

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/bulletins.read?mnr=179597#179688

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/bulletins.read?mnr=49306&pagen=6#49434

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/bulletins.read?mnr=378875&pagen=4#379176

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/bulletins.read?mnr=38293#38376

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/bulletins.read?mnr=65559&pagen=2#65602





by Sheesh on 12 May 2012 - 01:05

I personally love this idea and plan to do a WLxSL breeding in the next year or so. There are a few breeders on this board who have been doing this for quite some time and have been very happy with the results. Hopefully they will chime in. This idea is indeed growing, but it takes generations. Check out the thread "The Complete German Shepherd" from January. It had some good comments. Theresa

nypiper127

by nypiper127 on 12 May 2012 - 01:05

PL being "Pot Luck"????

Rik

by Rik on 12 May 2012 - 02:05

pet line, and nothing wrong with a good pet. I do like pot luck though and may use it in the future and of course give you no credit.

here's hoping you find another GSD that is your perfect dog,

Rik

Ramage

by Ramage on 12 May 2012 - 02:05

The cross either seems to go very well or very badly. Just what I have seen with my own eyes and only out of a handful of dogs.

darylehret

by darylehret on 12 May 2012 - 02:05

I'm just trying to figure out where all these "ugly" workingline dogs are.  I suppose I've seen a few, but not enough to stereotype the workinglines in such a way.  There are plenty of disgusting showlines, for sure.

And what, exactly, is a "balanced temperament"?  I wouldn't categorize very many dogs as "imbalanced", and some of those I would, happened to have been actually high level competitors and even national champions!

I have not myself bred a cross of the two, but my stud dog has participated in such a breeding.  The showline female was confident, with very focused drive, so I didn't view it as a wasteful attempt to experiment.  The male I personally raised of that breeding from 3 to 6 months of age was nice, but "too nice" for me.  His drive was not pronounced enough, for my preference, and his aggression was virtually nonexistant.  Made a nice dog for someone else, I'm sure.  Another male of that litter (pic below) is going to be a certified patrol dog by the end of the month (at only one year old!), appearantly able to detect marijuana as well as track and apprehend suspects. 




The reason why I myself would never conduct such a breeding is primarily because it was such a completely diverse outcross, with unpredictable results, and a greater potential for less uniform characteristics, both physical and temperamental.  They say "cull hard" on your line bred litters, but on the total outcrosses, I say "cull harder"!  I would recommend anyone that does a show/working cross, go directly toward inbreeding rather tightly afterwards (with a workingline dog, of course), perhaps a 2-3 or 3-2 on some given producer who is prolific (widely used), so that with greater certainty can help to re-establish a more predictable homozygous genotype.

nypiper127

by nypiper127 on 12 May 2012 - 03:05

I have been working narcotics for over 20 years and even I can detect marijuana!!!!  Ha  I understand the unpredictability of the outcrosses...but sooner or later if enough are done...with high probability research of pedigrees...one would assume that sooner or later some successful breedings would occur on a consistent basis.  Maybe I am just not grasping the genetics thing well enough.  I read in one post where a guy was able to tell how many gererations it would take to correct things like "length", hocks, said shoulders were hard to correct...I would just assume that the RIGHT people (not backyard breeders) would be able to study lines, observe litters and come up with a nice mix that consistently produces good looking sound working dogs.  As for "ugly"...I did mention it was my opinion...I do not expect people to think what I find pleasing should be pleasing to others. I am partial to the SL look.  Others partial to WL look...I get it. Just saying...with all knowledge and experience out there it would something that could be done.  A balanced temperment...subjective I know...but I would say a great dog with awesome drives, focus, grip that is completely trustworthy around kids, dogs, livestock (too much to ask for)?
I asked this because in the last 25 yrs I had three AWESOME show line GSDs that all had great drive focus and natural protection instincts.  In the last few years I have read on here the debates and knocks on the current SL dogs and their "lack" of good working drives and couldn't understand it.  Nine months ago I bought my daughter a puppy from a great looking litter with a sire I thought to be a nice SL look with great work titles (I know...a whole other debate):http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=614823
Well...great looking puppy dog with poor focus, very little ball drive and very low prey drive.  He does however have strong herding instincts and is very intelligent.  I was shocked...it was almost exactly what I had read on here.  So was just figuring on re-stacking the deck.
.
 ,  ver            mjjmjm v,,,,,

RLHAR

by RLHAR on 12 May 2012 - 05:05

I would say a great dog with awesome drives, focus, grip that is completely trustworthy around kids, dogs, livestock (too much to ask for)?

You just described both my dogs to the point and both are 100% working line.

ziegenfarm

by ziegenfarm on 12 May 2012 - 06:05

the problem is that people are too eager for results.  most folks don't have time, patience and kennel space to devote to this endeavor.  success cannot be achieved in one or two generations.  i can see some merit in doing this, but honestly, most folks don't have enough background on the dogs to be able to produce any kind of consistent results.  people are far too focused on the male whether a top winning showdog or a multi-titled sportdog.  that is not a real breeding program --- that is will of the whisp, flitting from one winning dog to another.  it also requires that the breeder be able to read the dogs accurately; to know the difference between what is genetic and what is trained.  crossing the two can certainly be done, but best done by someone with a lot of experience.
pjp





 


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