DM Death Statistics in the GSD among the PDB members - Page 16

Put in the wrong URL for the DM database- the correct one is:
http://www.thedmdatabase.com
Evidently, my typing skills are in the same category as my math skills.....

  Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
BE PROACTIVE!
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate  

Don't worry Marjorie, it shouldn't be you!

No, it cant be me.. I dont have the knowledge or experience. CJ needs his fair share of time, too, as I was so busy with Missie T for so long. He needs his time to shine. His elbows are clicking badly and I may have to do another stem cell treatent for his elbows, as he was very thin when they did it during his UAP surgery and they couldnt get much fat. I am nervous about his rear leg position I catch him in at times. I am going to be watching him very carefully, needless to say.

I need to go down to the beach and find a genie in a bottle. I know the producer from the Entourage would give me a walk on role if he does a new show. The $10,000 brought in when it went for auction helped, but its really a spit in the bucket. The way to go is probably with the NIH, as they have the bucks, and GSDM is more like primary progressive MS, but my inexperience would land any proposal in the garbage pail.

Why am I up at this hour... In too much pain to sleep. I have a koi pond with 4 foot koi i grew from 3 inch babies. Last night I was working on the pond and fell into the hole by the sieve. I look like I was mugged and beaten.  I was finally starting to heal from the fractured wrist and elbow from lifting Missie T. Oh well, one step forward, two steps back-  thats liife...

  Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
BE PROACTIVE!
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate  

Here are a couple of videos of Corgi's with DM. To me they don't look any different to GSDs with DM. What do you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7tpsTcD0ps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UrVDQARvZs

Maybe the definition sensory loss needs to be defined very precisely by Dr Coates? In the second video the corgi owner clearly also states that the dog has no pain, which also indicates complete sensory loss to the rear legs (at least it does to me). But when no sensory loss was first mentioned I didn't understand how any dog could have DM and not experience sensory loss. I don't understand that at all.



 

 This is the websters dictionary definition of sensory loss:

--- >A disease of the nerves whereby the myelin or insulating sheath of myelin on the nerves does not stay intact and the messages from the brain to the muscles through the nerves are not carried properly. (references)

Sensory loss is what it is- it doesnt matter how one attempts to explain it. I go back to the definition of slightly pregnant- no such thing- either one is or one is not. Sensory loss is either present or it isnt. It has an accepted definition and one cannot change it to suit their needs. ALS diseases cause motor problems but not sensory ones. That is they do not cause CP deficits or hypermetria (ataxia in which movements overreach the intended goal.).  
Motor problems might look like DM but they are not the same as sensory problems, which again is why the diagnostic tests results are so different between the DM of other breeds and GSDM. To try to put this into perspective,  here are the differences in the diagnostic testing, once again.  As you can see, they are VERY different
 As you can see, they are VERY diffeA. Motor unit diseaseMotor unit dseases test out completely differently.
 
DM Corgis, Boxers, : motor unit disease

DM GSD: Auto-immune disease

DM Corgis, Boxers : Protein is normal in the AO CSF

DM GSD: Protein is normal in the AO CSF but Protein is elevated in the Lumbar CSF

DM Corgis, Boxers: Oligoclonal bands of IgG are uncommon

DM GSDS: Oligoclonal bands of IgG are common in MS

DM Corgis, Boxers: affects cell bodies of neurons

DM GSDS: Does not affect cell bodies of neurons

DM Corgis. Boxers: muscle spams

DM GSDS: no muscle spasms

DM Corgis, Boxers:EMG is affected early in the disease

DM GSDS: EMG is normal


 
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Ugh- i had to start a new post as it wouldnt let me finish, Abby. I am as puzzled as you are.  The definition of sensory loss is accepted by the scientific community, and it cannot be manipulated. Its not a matter of what DM looks like, from breed to breed, because what causes DM in one breed is not what causes DM in all breeds. All breeds can get a degeneration of the spine which is chronic and progressive. Its the diagnostics that tell the real truth as to what it truly is behind the problem. One simply cannot define their OWN version of sensory loss :( Again, it is a definition accepted by the entire scientific community. There is no sensory loss in ALS, as it is a motor unit disease!!!  Therefore, it is moot what Dr Coates' definition of sensory loss is, and if there is sensory loss in Corgi DM- the disease cannot be ALS, as she claims it to be. Period, end. If she says there is sensory loss in corgi DM she would be contradicting herself!

Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
BE PROACTIVE!
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate 

Something puzzles me, looking in on this and those Corgi vids.  I'd always got the impression that the sensory loss could
be intermittent,  especially in the earlier stages.  But that this deteriorates by the time they are at the point where the back legs are really paralised and just dragging, they cannot stand up on them - as with Morgy in the Leerburg video - and I thought that meant that even when supported by a cart, they could not move them ?  [I have not lived with a case so have observed only from a distance].  However when Morgy was in the pool, her back legs were definitely paddling.  So presumably she could feel the water or at least its pressure around them;  presumably the motor impulses from the brain to the legs still work ?   Not only was she paddling with all 4 legs, she appeared to be doing so in a quite
co-ordinated way.  Comments  ?

  Animals can no longer walk, once the nerves in the spinal cord are destroyed, because without nerve connections, muscles cannot work.

The control pathways that make muscles work, are located all throughout the spinal cord.

DM ocurrs in the spinal cord.

No, in late stage GSDM, GSDS CANNOT move their rear legs in the water! I have had 2 DM dogs and have run my DM Support Group since 1997.  My dogs, and all the dogs in the group that had access to water, needed a life preserver to stay afloat in late stage DM. They swam using the bouyancy of the water and their front legs. Without a life preserver, they would sink, as they had no range of motion, or any motion, at all, in the rear.  Their legs just hung. There are many diseases that mimic the symptoms of DM, so perhaps the dog that was able to use all four legs to swim did not have GSDM, or they werent in late stage DM where there is total sensory loss.

Missie T got acupuncture 2 x  weekly. In addition to acupuncture in her spine, she got acupuncture in her pads, to stimulate the nerves. She used to balk in the earlier stages of the disease, having needles stuck in her pads, but once she got late stage, they put the needles in her feet, turned the elecro acupuncture machine to its highest setting, and she felt NOTHING :( We had a good read on her condition, due to the electroacupuncture. The machine had settings, and I remember when she first started receiving acupuncture, she was on a setting of #2 and she would pull her feet away. Late stage DM, she was at setting #10 and felt nothing at all. That coincided with not being able to use her rear legs in the pool. There was total and complete sensory loss.

Dogs in earlier stage DM can have some range of motion in the pool, as they do not have to support their weight as they do on land. Since total sensory loss doesnt come about till late stage GSDM, in the water, in earlier stage DM they can move their legs more than they can, on land.  Missie T moved her legs before she hit late stage DM in her cart. The cart allowed her not to have to support her rear. However, as the disease progressed, I had to take booties, punch a hole in them, put notebook rings through the holes, shoe goo them and put bungee cords through the notebook rings attaching it to the leg rings of the cart. I never would have done this if she still had sensation, for you want them to feel sensations as long as possible, and booties interfere with the transmission of sensation. However, she got to the point where she was tearing her feet up something horrible. The bungee cords kept her feet from getting chewed up and dragging, however, as the disease progresses, even with her cart supporting her and the boots with the bungees, her feet just bumped along the ground, and finally, I had to put her feet in the stirrups, as she could not move them, at all.

Ok, now I am thoroughly depressed, thinking about it, but it is important to educate. I owe it to Jack Flash and Missie T...Knowledge is power...
  Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
BE PROACTIVE!
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate  

but she got to the point where her toes were getting 

U of F set up an official account code!!!

https://www.uff.ufl.edu/OnlineGiving/FundDetail.asp?FundCode=018139 

Dexter PTS 31/01/06
Age 9 years
Diagnosed by several vets but on visual symptoms, Physical exam, no tests.

Dexter showed the first sgns of this disease at 7years & by June 2005 hecould no longer wal unaided.  He would have been PTS then had it not been for the purchse of a dog cart which gave us another 6mths.

I miss him everyday.

Jessica PTS 28/12/05
Aged 9 years
Diagnosed by the vet on visual symptoms only, physical exam,no tests.

Jessica was Dexter's sister.  She managed to get to this age without a cart, but her symtoms tarted to show a few months after Dexter's.

Sonny PTS 06/05
Aged 8 years
Diagnosed by the vet on visal syptoms only, physical exam, no tests.

Sonny was Dexter & Jessica's brother.  He started to shwo symptoms after Dexter, but before Jessica.  He was the first of the 3 to be PTS because his owner had seen the ilness in 2 previous dogs & knew there was no hope, so felt it was beter to let him go sooner rather than later.