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by Bundishep on 20 July 2012 - 20:07
Theres always going to be two camps those that believe in the value of Sch and thoses that dont,is it perfect no,but what else is out there, a great police dog with good temperment is a thing wonderful thing to see but most dogs bred do not go to police departments,if thoses that feel that Sch is not a good way to test hardness and nerves then it would be nice to see a new trial system that does,i agree the weak gun thats used isnt much to see how good a dogs gun nerves are,I think alot of real dog trainers and thoughs that know temperment well understand that all dogs that can obtain a sch title doesnt always mean they have the best of temperment,but it can weed out alot of borderline dogs that should never be bred in the first place,proof in the best temperment will always be in the pups,but trials can still be a useful tool.
by Gusmanda on 20 July 2012 - 20:07
Wonder if RSV2000 is doing anything to bring things back in place and promoting studs which are not just sport. The SV certainly doesn't appear to be.
by OGBS on 20 July 2012 - 22:07
Well, it looks like this thread has taken on the "Is Schutzhund the devil?" and "sport dogs vs police dogs" route.
What I will add is this: A good dog is a good dog, PERIOD!
A good article to read about this is:
http://www.johnsoaresk9training.com/info/sportvsrealdogs.html
How and what people choose to breed is usually according to each individual's taste.
To those that keep bemoaning the highly prey driven dogs and saying they are no good for police and military work please think about this:
If what you say is true, why have so many police and military units switched to the overly prey driven, and known for being on the nervy side, Belgian Malinois?
For most of the really serious K9 units you aren't seeing many GSD's anymore. There are, of course, many exceptions, but, the days of taking "King the Police Dog" down to meet Little Timmy and his friends at kindergarten class are over for these K9 units. A lot of the K9 units want overly prey driven biting machines.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vzfUPGiSnQ
What I will add is this: A good dog is a good dog, PERIOD!
A good article to read about this is:
http://www.johnsoaresk9training.com/info/sportvsrealdogs.html
How and what people choose to breed is usually according to each individual's taste.
To those that keep bemoaning the highly prey driven dogs and saying they are no good for police and military work please think about this:
If what you say is true, why have so many police and military units switched to the overly prey driven, and known for being on the nervy side, Belgian Malinois?
For most of the really serious K9 units you aren't seeing many GSD's anymore. There are, of course, many exceptions, but, the days of taking "King the Police Dog" down to meet Little Timmy and his friends at kindergarten class are over for these K9 units. A lot of the K9 units want overly prey driven biting machines.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vzfUPGiSnQ
by Gustav on 21 July 2012 - 04:07
Quote.....from me above...." now you can take a prey driven dog with good nerve and make a fine patrol dog"........... .????Does that sound like prey dogs can't do police work.....oh Well!
by OGBS on 21 July 2012 - 04:07
Gustav,
I have a good grasp of what you are saying and that was not lost on me.
(check your pm)
I have a good grasp of what you are saying and that was not lost on me.
(check your pm)
by Avery Hill Kennels on 21 July 2012 - 05:07
I think in some way Sch. in US is the devil
It is not like in Europe you have a club on ever corner with access to very inexpensive dogs
In US Sch. means to travel several hours with over priced dog so end result is "if" you can achieve a title on that dog it most certainly is going to be bred.
So here is how it goes in US travel several hours atleast onece a week with 1500.00 dog possible import??
Drive 2 maybe 3 hours that is gas, wear and tear on vehicle set around in lounge chair shooting the bull with "like" minded dog people train 20 minutes eat your Bar-B-Q and drive your 2,3 hours home (some times more) then two years later thousands of dollars later... your dog can pass Sch.1 then in the name of recouping expenses that dog will be bred.
In Europe if a dog can be washed out early no big deal clubs are like Pizza Huts and dogs are cheap so who cares
Here not like that so people get involved in clubs are happy to be around "dog" people put out thousands to train and travel then THINK well rule is if it can achieve a Sch. title then by all things Europe WHY NOT breed it because well this is how it is done there!!
Same can be said of imports great deal of expense get the Sch3 import blah blah here it is a shitter well they breed it to recoup expenses even if they know it is a shiiter BUT can/will never say... resale when debt is paid for dog and never said that dog was total crap because they would be shooting themselves in the foot for breeding it (to recoup) money so goes to next buyer and so on.
I think a lot of crap is being produced and dropped in US based on Sch. in US
My 2 cents on Sch. USA
Not to de rail Tom thread
It is not like in Europe you have a club on ever corner with access to very inexpensive dogs
In US Sch. means to travel several hours with over priced dog so end result is "if" you can achieve a title on that dog it most certainly is going to be bred.
So here is how it goes in US travel several hours atleast onece a week with 1500.00 dog possible import??
Drive 2 maybe 3 hours that is gas, wear and tear on vehicle set around in lounge chair shooting the bull with "like" minded dog people train 20 minutes eat your Bar-B-Q and drive your 2,3 hours home (some times more) then two years later thousands of dollars later... your dog can pass Sch.1 then in the name of recouping expenses that dog will be bred.
In Europe if a dog can be washed out early no big deal clubs are like Pizza Huts and dogs are cheap so who cares
Here not like that so people get involved in clubs are happy to be around "dog" people put out thousands to train and travel then THINK well rule is if it can achieve a Sch. title then by all things Europe WHY NOT breed it because well this is how it is done there!!
Same can be said of imports great deal of expense get the Sch3 import blah blah here it is a shitter well they breed it to recoup expenses even if they know it is a shiiter BUT can/will never say... resale when debt is paid for dog and never said that dog was total crap because they would be shooting themselves in the foot for breeding it (to recoup) money so goes to next buyer and so on.
I think a lot of crap is being produced and dropped in US based on Sch. in US
My 2 cents on Sch. USA
Not to de rail Tom thread
by vomeisenhaus on 21 July 2012 - 05:07
Ogbs .. I believe the reason for the switch is many super high prey drive gsd's lack high fight drive. They can be found but not for what the depts want to pay. Tiekerhook wants as much for a puppy as many deptswant to pay for a n adult green dog. It has to do with economics & availability.
by vomeisenhaus on 21 July 2012 - 05:07
Great post avery :)
by Bancroft on 21 July 2012 - 08:07
Good post from Avery Hill.
From European perspective you are right. We have many, many dogs here. Some owners will talk big with their dogs until they are not what is real situation. Ok dogsport not cheap, we have to make puppy to sell. My friend show me video of dog called Bandit, forgot kennel name worked by Flinks. I use dog in many violent situations I would not buy this dog or puppy from him unless mother line very strong. Yet my friend says he has many breedings. I have worked many dogs if helper like Flinks sit down in the hide dog will punish the helper. Bandit back away when helper show aggression and need to be recovered.
Tom/Eros/Ellute/Gringo/Vito produce good sport dog. I cross this line to good nerve, hard dog, low drive, who do not want to please handler and this will make balance.
From European perspective you are right. We have many, many dogs here. Some owners will talk big with their dogs until they are not what is real situation. Ok dogsport not cheap, we have to make puppy to sell. My friend show me video of dog called Bandit, forgot kennel name worked by Flinks. I use dog in many violent situations I would not buy this dog or puppy from him unless mother line very strong. Yet my friend says he has many breedings. I have worked many dogs if helper like Flinks sit down in the hide dog will punish the helper. Bandit back away when helper show aggression and need to be recovered.
Tom/Eros/Ellute/Gringo/Vito produce good sport dog. I cross this line to good nerve, hard dog, low drive, who do not want to please handler and this will make balance.
by Gustav on 21 July 2012 - 11:07
@ Vomeisenhaus.....good post!
@ @ Avery Hil .......right on point.
@OGBS.....I 'm with you and realize u KNOW the difference in the different high prey dogs.
@ Banroft.....your last sentence reflects my thinking.....no more, no less. Nothing wrong with this line when bred like you describe, but then any line must be complimented!
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