Is Tom van't Leefdaalhof the next Troll/Timmy in sport world? - Page 15

Please, explain to me why people have this "idea" that people who compete with dogs want these over the top, crazy nutcases with less defense?
have you like..talk to them and people like Debbie Zappia, Susan Dooling want these over the top, prey driven, lack of defense dogs?

Highly doubt it.

Dog sport is a long time tradition in Europe, in some countries longer than others. US is huge and clubs and dog people are sparse and not on every corner. Yes I agree, some dogs are bred to recoup the money put into them, not all.

People will find shit load of excuses as why not to participate in any venue with a dog and breed the shit out of it, trash the sport, trash SAR, trash flyball (I am still convinced my dog would kill himself in flyball, don;t tell him).

There are people on this board who have never done jack shit with a dog and shit talk about everything, advise against sport yet breed to top sport dogs (pathetic, I tell ya). Most people breed to known names, don;t they? They need to sell puppies, right? Please, don't tell me that is not the case. The stud dog has to either have the mark Legendary or top sport or both, known lines, or who will buy the puppies?....I see it all the time, every day, even right now in the corner of this website.

Top, sport WUSV competition in both lines, blah, blah, blah... who are they fooling?

grouchy morning...



I still love what Tom does in combo with Czech lines... some very nice results!

have to agree pack , Ive seen some nice dogs from Tom on czech bitches, but then what, what to do for the next generation, thats were quite a few miss the boat IMO

I think go back to strong Czech dog. That's what I'm planning on anyway. Guess I'll find out if I screwed up, but I think not.

don't miss the point of the thread here, folks.  no one is criticizing tom being bred to solid females, or solid females out of tom being bred to solid males........czech or otherwise.  the concern is that tom progeny being bred to more tom progeny could bring out and set in some of the undesireables that we have seen present.  no different from any other dog.  its just that gustav noticed that tom's name is appearing more and more on pedigrees these days and we are discussing what kind of effect that will have on the breed.  the same discussion happened years ago with greif and people came to the same conclusion:  that it was good to bring into a breeding for certain characteristics, but there certainly is such a thing as too much of a good thing;  too much being detrimental rather than desireable.
pjp

Duke, the answer is simple...then, we have to figure out what works..just like any other breeding. 
I am fully understanding what Gustav is trying to say.This is a trend/pattern that has repeated itself for years. Some heavily used dogs are (overused) IMO. There will be people trying to breed without Tom to have some variety.. this goes in circles.

Better now, finished some retrieve work and not too bad.. not too bad.

 many go to westsport flavour of the day, next breeding/generation same as Tom and offspring are more often used for their names than for their qualities 

I think there have been eight pages of very good dialogue here that has helped a lot of people lurking eventually make better decisions. Information and experience are what we learn from.....the info gives us the tools and the experience helps us utilize the tools. When you can have thought provoking dialogue then people become better informed, but better yet they learn how to analyze things in the breed world. I know the sport people are sensitive to criticism of the sport and the dogs they are creating....but without objective dialogue sometimes people are too close or too involved to look at the shortcomings rationally. True stewards of the breed want to know the information that will keep them centered....people more interested in the venue they participate in will usually become offended at the criticism even if it's true, because their venue means more to them than the breed. That's okay, not hating on those folks, but we need to continue to discuss aspects of our breed whether it is breeding, training, bloodlines, shows, trials, or work.......to make sure the breed is healthy and strong. As long as we refuse to discuss the breeds shortcomings, they will not improve and you will look up and this breed will become an ornament dog.....don't laugh......poodles were once working dogs!

Yes Gusmanda you are not alone. Thanks everyone for your input to this thread. I'm taking notes even if I am not a breeder. 

 the concern is that tom progeny being bred to more tom progeny could bring out and set in some of the undesireables that we have seen present.  no different from any other dog.  its just that gustav noticed that tom's name is appearing more and more on pedigrees these days and we are discussing what kind of effect that will have on the breed.



Exactly! And this is the sort of thing that can happen, and it happens in ALL breeds. It's called the 'Popular sire effect."

http://www.stonedance.ca/images/Popular%20Sires.pdf