Is Tom van't Leefdaalhof the next Troll/Timmy in sport world? - Page 16

oh, that was a good article.....popular sire.  really good.  thanks for sharing.
pjp

AKA "founder effect", such as when a new breed is created from a splintered population, and they all happen to be related to Horand, for example.  There's no reason to associate a negative slant to it, it just is what it is, and if the positive potential didn't outweigh the risks involved, breedings on Tom would occur with less frequency than they are.  Tom is back far enough in today's pedigrees to see what the real issues of concern are, and 3-2, 2-3 and 3-3 linebreedings are being conducted with no great cause for concern that I'm aware of.  Personally, I'd show greater concern for the amount of Bomber breedings today, than the collective Tom's of yesterday.

 The Theory of Speciation VIA the Founder Principle

The founder principle has been used to explain many instances of rapid speciation. Advances from theoretical population genetics are incorporated into Mayr's original founder-effect genetic-revolution model to yield a newer model called the genetic transilience. The basic theoretical edifice lies upon the fact that founder event can sometimes lead to an accumulation of inbreeding and an induction of gametic disequilibrium. This, in turn, causes alleles to be selected more for their homozygous fitness effects and for their effects on a more stable genetic background. Selection occurring in multi-locus systems controlling integrated developmental, physiological, behavioral, etc., traits is particularly sensitive to these founder effects. If sufficient genetic variability exists in the founder population, such multilocus genetic systems can respond to drift and the altered selective forces by undergoing a rapid shift to a new adaptive peak known as the genetic transilience. A genetic transilience is, therefore, most likely to occur when the founder event causes a rapid accumulation of inbreeding without a severe reduction in genetic variability.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1214177/pdf/1011.pdf

sorry to disagree, the populair sire problem has nothing to do with linebreeding on a certain dog, it is a totally different discussion to begin with, because everybody running to Tom or Bomber can be doing this to make an outcross as well ,,these two things are a lot of times mentioned in one sentence by the people who are against linebreeding, but if im linebreeding my dogs 50 times on the same sire, this will have no impact on the breed worldwide, but if everybodi in the world would outcross their female to the same new famous dog/line, the breed will be in deep shit, in just one generation down the line you  deminished the genepool of the breed without a way back

in workingline bouviers this happened when Tomba started to be used by every breeder, now it is almost impossible to find a bouvier that doesnot have Tomba in his pedigree and people are allmost  FORCED to linebreed to him

so linebreeding will keep different genetics available, where the popular stud story will do the opposite

I would agree, the founder effect and linebreeding have very different ramifications.  Tom had 274 progeny, and not all of them breeders themselves.  His generation is typically found 2 to 4 generations back in a given pedigree, and therefore offers a lot less of his 'full compliment' of genetics.  Bomber will could end up having that many litters in his career, and appearing only a generation away in an exponentially spreading number of pedigrees, and spread throughout the breed on a much wider scale.  This includes countries such as the U.S., where breeding choices are far less discriminate, meaning I would expect a higher percentage of his progeny to become breeders.  Already, it appears, he will have more progeny than Fero did in his day.

I recently read some thoughts in a policedog-magazine on the GSD as a policedog/servicedog during the last 35 years or so here in sweden, the author started with GSDs in 1975 but later breed mals from 95 and forward, also tests a lot of the dog for service in his job. He stated that the biggest problem with the GSD is that many are washed out due to bad backs, allergies or other healhrelated stuff to early if compared to the malinois. In addition the workingdrives, huntdrive, fighting/preydrive and so on also are the most common problems in later years. The malinois on the other hand often has enough will to work but could have problems with courage, nervousness around people and too soft. The health aspect is still better in the malinois thou.

His thoughts why the GSD has gone downhill was these. The civilians sports in many cases dictates the breedings, the advanced training and aim for higher points makes people go for the softer and easier type of dog to train for high points. When more people see the GSD can´t with a few exceptions match the malinois in harder sports the GSD people tend to focus mostly on IPO, don´t know the trend in KNPV or french ring but here in sweden the GSD has become in minority in the national bitework program, this was not the case 10 years ago. Also, it´s not uncommon for the imported workinglines with IPO-background to resemble more and more the backline of the showdogs, ”beauty” seems to be a breedingcriteria also in some workingdogs apparantly.

He finsihed the article by saying there are still good examples of both GSDs and malinois, personaly he didn´t mind adding a strong GSD to the malinois population, has been done before, also asked if the GSD breeders would mind adding some malinois to improve health, structure and willignes to work? If not there must be a hard selection among the good GSDs, a breed change fast due to short generations-intrevalls, and what will happen in another 20 years from a servicedog perspective? Cooperation among experienced breeders that not is intressted in money or prestige as no 1 priority must happen, find the strong dogs in previous succesfull lines before importing new blood, no need to go over the river to get water so to speak. There must be a hard selection for health and workingability, changes can happen if breders are willing to do this.

 

So to connect all this with tom and breeding. Don´t know so much about tom, seen both decent dogs and average ones from puppies produced by sons of ellute as an example. Even in the same litter there could be quite big differences, so I guess what tom or orry really influence if they are more than 2 generations back is based much also on the other dogs in the pedigree. The question is if breeding to much on famous dogs is really good for the breed, especially if being good at IPO today means the dog in question produces better dogs for service. What we really should be judging a stud after is what he produces in terms of health and character, some of the unknown dogs seems to produce just as good if not better than these more famous dogs doing IPO descending from other even more famous dogs like ellute, orry and so on.

 

Johan, very interesting and relevant information.

Thank you Johan!!!....I have been saying much of the same thing for years on this forum....of course the show people won't even consider suggestions for change, and the sport people hide behide the statement," Well, you know real working dogs come from IPO dogs, so the sport dogs are fine". People are breeding FOR sport and show and it is decreasing the real working ability of the dog. It affects health, it affects, nerve, it affects balance in drives. People without blinders on or are not making a living on these venues, realize this. The diminishing use of the dog in places where this breed thrived is testimony. Nowadays sport people/breeders and show people/breeders are the only "experts" on the breed. Ask a military dog trainer of thirty years, or a police dog trainer of thirty years or a seeing eye trainer of thirty years, or a non competition herder of thirty years about the availability of getting a good working GSD today as opposed to the past. These are only the people who really flush out all aspects of the breed and see the shortcomings first. These shortcomings whether they are health or temperament related decrease the utility of the dog in service. These people really know, but the new experts will put them down when you talk about them based on some ineffective police or military dog handler that they knew. No these people (working trainers), don't tend to know pedigrees, But they do know a fine working dog because the stakes are too high if the dog doesn't perform. Excuses for your dog will get you killed! I talk to these people throughout the East Coast, most of the older trainers prefer the Gs as a breed for working, whether it is nosework, hunt work, or man work. But their are so many health/ temperament issues with the breed, they don't have time to take three years to find out if hip,elbows, drives, hardness, etc are going to work out. So Malinois is the expedient choice. This is the result of breeding FOR show and sport.....you had a better chance of getting a good working dog from a BYB forty years ago, then from some of the lines today. I know I have pissed some people off, that's okay.....but I speak to what I have seen and experienced, and as long as the end result use of the dog declines in real work.....I will stick to my rant.

Gus, didn't you post a couple times, how you started this thread about sport only?

by Gustav on 11 July 2012 - 00:07 Gustav Posts: 722 Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 01:47 am Actually the discussionofTom,I wantedwas inthe contextofbeingand producing sport dogs

Someone might look to Tom's line FOR the purpose of retaining great drives for competitive sport, withOUT compounding on social aggression and civil drive.  If that were one's intention, it's a really great bloodline to turn to, IMO.  The "sporty" option can offer a better balance in one's breeding where no shortage of civil aggression already exists.  That's an extreme I would not breed solely "for", not in today's society.  If civil aggression is what law enforcement wants, it can be found.  If they're turning to mals over gsd's, then it's for other reasons not found lacking in the Tom lines.