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by k9gsd78 on 10 July 2012 - 22:07
I hope no one takes this the wrong way... I do not want to detract from smith's dog in any way. He may be the epitome of what a German shepherd ought to be. I cannot know because I have never seen the dog in real life situations. And I do not just mean real life "protection" scenarios.
The things that make a "real GSD" cannot be found in trial scores or even, ultimately, on a schutzhund field. Many people forget that schutzhund was originally designed as a breed test... not as a sport or competition. Not to say that it isn't a great thing to participate in with your dog, as long as you see it for what it is and don't judge the total dog based on his "performance".
"That word 'SPORT' always means competition for the highest, that is true, but this competition reaches its high-water mark in 'Exhibitions', which, just because they demand no real capabilities lead people only too easily astray." - Max von Stephanitz
Those that are wanting "real GSDs" need to remember that v. Stephanitz defined the characteristics of the shepherd as : "joy in work, devotion to duty and to master, mistrust and sharpness against strange and irregular things, docility & obedience, teachableness & quickness to understand, and in addition, immunity to weather, uncommonly acute senses with gifts for retrieving and seeking, assisted by his special gait by which he leaves nothing unnoticed and unsought."
Sometimes, I wonder if there is too much training involved in the sport of schutzhund, to the point that it detracts from the dog's true abilities. Is a dog retrieving because he really has a "gift for retrieving" or because his trainer used a force retrieve method to pass the retrieve at a trial? Is a dog really seeking during a blind search or just going through the patterns he was taught?
Just thinking out loud..
The things that make a "real GSD" cannot be found in trial scores or even, ultimately, on a schutzhund field. Many people forget that schutzhund was originally designed as a breed test... not as a sport or competition. Not to say that it isn't a great thing to participate in with your dog, as long as you see it for what it is and don't judge the total dog based on his "performance".
"That word 'SPORT' always means competition for the highest, that is true, but this competition reaches its high-water mark in 'Exhibitions', which, just because they demand no real capabilities lead people only too easily astray." - Max von Stephanitz
Those that are wanting "real GSDs" need to remember that v. Stephanitz defined the characteristics of the shepherd as : "joy in work, devotion to duty and to master, mistrust and sharpness against strange and irregular things, docility & obedience, teachableness & quickness to understand, and in addition, immunity to weather, uncommonly acute senses with gifts for retrieving and seeking, assisted by his special gait by which he leaves nothing unnoticed and unsought."
Sometimes, I wonder if there is too much training involved in the sport of schutzhund, to the point that it detracts from the dog's true abilities. Is a dog retrieving because he really has a "gift for retrieving" or because his trainer used a force retrieve method to pass the retrieve at a trial? Is a dog really seeking during a blind search or just going through the patterns he was taught?
Just thinking out loud..
by OGBS on 10 July 2012 - 22:07
K9gsd78,
I'll take it the wrong way for you and please don't be offended.
The discussion in this thread is about Tom van't Leefdaalhof and what his offspring have produced over time. Others have expounded on that with what they like and don't like about him and then also about other stud dogs.
Your post is about whether Shutzhund/IPO has any merit.
Two different discussions and yours should probably be a different thread entirely.
I'll take it the wrong way for you and please don't be offended.
The discussion in this thread is about Tom van't Leefdaalhof and what his offspring have produced over time. Others have expounded on that with what they like and don't like about him and then also about other stud dogs.
Your post is about whether Shutzhund/IPO has any merit.
Two different discussions and yours should probably be a different thread entirely.
by k9gsd78 on 10 July 2012 - 23:07
No offense taken... I just think you're wrong about the fact that this does not belong in the same discussion. You seem to have missed the whole point of my post.
The discussion had turned to whether a particular stud was producing "real GSDs" and dogs that are "twice the dog" of other studs. How can we discuss that without knowing what those terms mean? In order to find out what a "real GSD" should be and how to measure whether a dog is "twice the dog" of another dog you need to have a standard to measure against. Where better to find that standard than quotes from Max von Stephanitz himself?
You need to keep perspective to have a quality discussion. Sure, we can throw terms out there and make ourselves feel good about our dogs, but unless everyone understands what each other is talking about, it is only vain talk and really does nothing to enhance knowledge or better the breed.
The discussion had turned to whether a particular stud was producing "real GSDs" and dogs that are "twice the dog" of other studs. How can we discuss that without knowing what those terms mean? In order to find out what a "real GSD" should be and how to measure whether a dog is "twice the dog" of another dog you need to have a standard to measure against. Where better to find that standard than quotes from Max von Stephanitz himself?
You need to keep perspective to have a quality discussion. Sure, we can throw terms out there and make ourselves feel good about our dogs, but unless everyone understands what each other is talking about, it is only vain talk and really does nothing to enhance knowledge or better the breed.
by Gustav on 11 July 2012 - 00:07
Actually the discussion of Tom, I wanted was in the context of being and producing sport dogs. If you look at 10 pedigrees of ntop dogs at WUSV or Bundesseigerprufund, I'd dare say that eight would have Troll or Timmy somewhere.( Unless dog is all Czech lines and even those lines are being saturated with these two). So I'm curious if 5 to 10 years from now will Tom be in a similar position.
by Gusmanda on 11 July 2012 - 01:07
Just checked the top 11 out of curiosity (could not find Geisha Egidius, #8), all of them have either Troll or Tim, wonder whether there are any participating dogs that do not have Fero.
http://www.wusv-2011.com/en/results
http://www.wusv-2011.com/en/results
by Gustav on 11 July 2012 - 02:07
@Gusmanda...I don't make this stuff up, though some would like to think so to keep from dealing with reality. Lol
by smith on 11 July 2012 - 03:07
i just like mixing things up in these threads lol. Most people have their own opinion on which bloodlines treat their needs or wants. Its just a opinion. I prefer more serious dogs with alot of courage , you know the kind that bite without a sleeve or if you give them a hard correction they will let you know about it. At the same time the dog has to have a great nerves and be social. So that being said Ive owned/worked progeny out of the dogs mentioned above and again JMO the dogs ive seen and worked out of lasco and chico are "TWICE THE DOG"! because they fit my needs and wants and like that style of dog the bloodline offers! To each their own! Some people may think their showline is twice the dog lol
by Chaz Reinhold on 11 July 2012 - 03:07
That's cool.
by smith on 11 July 2012 - 03:07
Chaz you are cool as a fan bro
by k9gsd78 on 11 July 2012 - 05:07
Thanks for the additional info, smith. I was curious because the one Chicco son that I knew personally was a fantastic all around dog... both on and off the field. Solid, steady, with a lot of heart. He was out of a different dam than Lasco though.
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