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by Psycht on 06 August 2012 - 16:08
Fawndallas - You cite other individuals description of an AKC show as part of the reasoning behind your belief that AKC obedience etc is not disciplined. I think the most salient point that is being made on this thread is that you need to get out and experience AKC shows. Schutzhund training, nosework, etc *personally* and not just base your knowledge on descriptions on a messageboard. As someone who has shown in AKC obedience for going on 15 years I can say that it can be a chaotic venue. Lots of things going on all at once. With that said, it shows your inexperience to believe that obedience is not a thinking sport.
Obedience, particularly the higher levels, takes quite a bit of thinking skills. When you get to the UD level the dog has to work independently from the handler and complete tasks like scent discrimination etc. This is extremely mentally challenging. As to dogs being a year old and doing the tasks that you list, most individuals who raise dogs to compete with have those tasks down pat by a year. This is a video of my now 4.5 year old girl at approximately 13 months playing around in obedience: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=89GkH5AMCQI
She had her Rally Novice title at 6.5 months and than I held her back until she was 2.5 years old (I do not believe in rushing into the formal obedience ring) and she got her CD/CDX within a span of 3 weeks (with an all breed HIT to boot) after that she had a litter and then finished her UD - she went from a CD to a UD in under 21 months and managed to squeeze a litter in there. I mention all this not to brag but to show that many of us do put the effort in early on with our dogs (and without "outsiders") so while I am sure Rose is a special dog, the fact that she was able to complete these tasks at a year is wonderful but not unusal for a dog that has an early introduction to training.
As to the distance one must travel to gain experience, welcome to the dog world :-) Many of us drive a significant distance in order to improve our training skills. I live in MT and drive 300 miles one way for herding lessons. If you are going to attempt to get involved with dog sport you are going to have to come to realization that it is a commitment in both time and money. At the end of the day you can continue to ask questions regarding training on this messageboard but it will in no way garner you the knowledge and skills that you will need to be successful. Get some references for people who are involved with the sports you are interested in learning about and commit to at least going and observing those facilities/shows/trials to gain a deeper understanding of what the sport entails. By doing so, you will not only see hands on what is going on but you will be able to make some personal contacts within those sports that will be beneficial to you in the future. Good luck :-)
Obedience, particularly the higher levels, takes quite a bit of thinking skills. When you get to the UD level the dog has to work independently from the handler and complete tasks like scent discrimination etc. This is extremely mentally challenging. As to dogs being a year old and doing the tasks that you list, most individuals who raise dogs to compete with have those tasks down pat by a year. This is a video of my now 4.5 year old girl at approximately 13 months playing around in obedience: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=89GkH5AMCQI
She had her Rally Novice title at 6.5 months and than I held her back until she was 2.5 years old (I do not believe in rushing into the formal obedience ring) and she got her CD/CDX within a span of 3 weeks (with an all breed HIT to boot) after that she had a litter and then finished her UD - she went from a CD to a UD in under 21 months and managed to squeeze a litter in there. I mention all this not to brag but to show that many of us do put the effort in early on with our dogs (and without "outsiders") so while I am sure Rose is a special dog, the fact that she was able to complete these tasks at a year is wonderful but not unusal for a dog that has an early introduction to training.
As to the distance one must travel to gain experience, welcome to the dog world :-) Many of us drive a significant distance in order to improve our training skills. I live in MT and drive 300 miles one way for herding lessons. If you are going to attempt to get involved with dog sport you are going to have to come to realization that it is a commitment in both time and money. At the end of the day you can continue to ask questions regarding training on this messageboard but it will in no way garner you the knowledge and skills that you will need to be successful. Get some references for people who are involved with the sports you are interested in learning about and commit to at least going and observing those facilities/shows/trials to gain a deeper understanding of what the sport entails. By doing so, you will not only see hands on what is going on but you will be able to make some personal contacts within those sports that will be beneficial to you in the future. Good luck :-)
by Sunsilver on 06 August 2012 - 16:08
When I see the OWNERS being towed up to the front door by their dogs, that's a pretty good indicator of the training/lack of training, and I see that more often than not!
The other day, an owner let her dog out the door here without a leash on. Fifteen minutes later, she was STILL trying to catch it. I told her to follow me back inside, and, of course, the dog followed, and we were able to snare it.
Just one example of many!
Most of my boarders are regulars, and I soon get a pretty good idea as to how much training the owners have put into the dog. It's never very much.
The other day, an owner let her dog out the door here without a leash on. Fifteen minutes later, she was STILL trying to catch it. I told her to follow me back inside, and, of course, the dog followed, and we were able to snare it.
Just one example of many!
Most of my boarders are regulars, and I soon get a pretty good idea as to how much training the owners have put into the dog. It's never very much.
by workingdogz on 06 August 2012 - 16:08
Psycht:
Herding is another thinking 'trick' you can do
As for training a dog to do basic manners by a year?
How about this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvKecC9_LpI
Herding is another thinking 'trick' you can do
As for training a dog to do basic manners by a year?
How about this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvKecC9_LpI
by fawndallas on 06 August 2012 - 16:08
I never once said or implied that a competition was not hard enough for me. I competed with horses. I know what it takes to get there. I also know my time limitations. To get to a competition level, I will only have the time for that with one dog, Cirberus. All of my other time is given handicap/ service training I do (and to working 50 - 60 hours and to raising my child and to helping my husband with his health issues). By asking about the sport name, I can then take that to find additional information for me to work with. Just because I ask about a sport, does not mean I am looking to get into that sport; I am just trying to find a "name" for what I am looking for.
Me making a "big deal" out of the basics.... Not really. I actually have not gone into details on what I am teaching the puppies until now. Someone stated that I did not have a clue about raising dogs. That is BS.
You want advanced obedience? I have that too for Rose. What is considered advanced obedience for a service dog is NOT the same thing as for SARs, IPO, and all of the other alphabet that is used. This does not say what I do is better or less than what you do, only very different. Someone stated that SARs is not a sport; that it is real life. I agree 100%. The same is for a handicap/ service dog. Just because I am asking very elementary questions about your area of expertise, does not mean I am not an expert in my own area. You want the list? Rose can:
If I fall and cannot reach to stand up, Rose knows how to go up under my arm and shoulder so I can reach her harness. Then she stands up (taking my full weight) so I can at least get to a kneeling position.
If I cannot grasp a door handle (turning knobs do not work) because my hand function is not there, she can open the door for me and hold it until I make it through.
If I am in a situation where I need my husband and I cannot get to him, she knows how find him, get his attention, then bring him back to me.
She knows to watch for my hand tremors. If she sees them, neither heaven or he## can make her move from my side, as she knows this is going to be a bad day.
Retrieving? Yes, cell phone, purse, what I dropped on the floor (paper is the biggest challenge), a bottle of water out of the fridge, blanket, shoes.
Need me to keep going? These are the things that make my life manageable and insures I am fully active in my son's life. Are they the same as her jumping over a fence with a dumbbell in her mouth? No, but then a dog that can jump over a fence with a dumbbell in their mouth will not help me. Not to say the dog jumping over the fence is not a great achievement. It is just not what Rose needs to do.
~~~~~~~~~~~ I will not disillusion myself to thinking any of this that Rose does is more than a trick though; I am just very dependent on her tricks.
What I do not know is what many of you are fully into. For example, tracking, SARs, BH, CDH, etc. This is what I am gathering information about. What these things are called, what they really mean, who to talk to for valid expert advise, etc. I know my world frontwards and backwards. What I do not know is about your competition world and I am interested in it, as one of the puppies has some of what many of you look for in your world. I would like to try to venture out if I can. Will I get there, maybe, maybe not; it will not stop me from at least trying.
Me making a "big deal" out of the basics.... Not really. I actually have not gone into details on what I am teaching the puppies until now. Someone stated that I did not have a clue about raising dogs. That is BS.
You want advanced obedience? I have that too for Rose. What is considered advanced obedience for a service dog is NOT the same thing as for SARs, IPO, and all of the other alphabet that is used. This does not say what I do is better or less than what you do, only very different. Someone stated that SARs is not a sport; that it is real life. I agree 100%. The same is for a handicap/ service dog. Just because I am asking very elementary questions about your area of expertise, does not mean I am not an expert in my own area. You want the list? Rose can:
If I fall and cannot reach to stand up, Rose knows how to go up under my arm and shoulder so I can reach her harness. Then she stands up (taking my full weight) so I can at least get to a kneeling position.
If I cannot grasp a door handle (turning knobs do not work) because my hand function is not there, she can open the door for me and hold it until I make it through.
If I am in a situation where I need my husband and I cannot get to him, she knows how find him, get his attention, then bring him back to me.
She knows to watch for my hand tremors. If she sees them, neither heaven or he## can make her move from my side, as she knows this is going to be a bad day.
Retrieving? Yes, cell phone, purse, what I dropped on the floor (paper is the biggest challenge), a bottle of water out of the fridge, blanket, shoes.
Need me to keep going? These are the things that make my life manageable and insures I am fully active in my son's life. Are they the same as her jumping over a fence with a dumbbell in her mouth? No, but then a dog that can jump over a fence with a dumbbell in their mouth will not help me. Not to say the dog jumping over the fence is not a great achievement. It is just not what Rose needs to do.
~~~~~~~~~~~ I will not disillusion myself to thinking any of this that Rose does is more than a trick though; I am just very dependent on her tricks.
What I do not know is what many of you are fully into. For example, tracking, SARs, BH, CDH, etc. This is what I am gathering information about. What these things are called, what they really mean, who to talk to for valid expert advise, etc. I know my world frontwards and backwards. What I do not know is about your competition world and I am interested in it, as one of the puppies has some of what many of you look for in your world. I would like to try to venture out if I can. Will I get there, maybe, maybe not; it will not stop me from at least trying.
by fawndallas on 06 August 2012 - 17:08
As for titles, those are just very hard earned letters and numbers. As many people pointed out in other threads, in real life most of these highly titled dogs will not apply their sport training.
For me and Rose, titles mean nothing. I need her to do her job and her tricks in real life; she does this and make my world go around. Telling me that means nothing because she does not have a bunch of letters behind her name; pardon me, but you can BITE ME.
I am done here. I got what I was looking for and I know who to listen to. The rest is just, well, noise.
For me and Rose, titles mean nothing. I need her to do her job and her tricks in real life; she does this and make my world go around. Telling me that means nothing because she does not have a bunch of letters behind her name; pardon me, but you can BITE ME.
I am done here. I got what I was looking for and I know who to listen to. The rest is just, well, noise.
by workingdogz on 06 August 2012 - 17:08
It's just a little thing, but SARs would be a
respiratory disease.
SAR is the 'dog world' known and accepted
acronym for Search and Rescue
As for the rest?
I'm out, I have a headache from all this babble.
respiratory disease.
SAR is the 'dog world' known and accepted
acronym for Search and Rescue
As for the rest?
I'm out, I have a headache from all this babble.
by RLHAR on 06 August 2012 - 17:08
I've seen most IPO puppies start their training at 8 weeks. Tracking, obedience, drive work -not protection but the basic building blocks for it- and socialization.
Fawn you really seem to be focused in on the finished product rather than the theory behind the training and what those titles mean.
I am sorry you won't open your eyes beyond your set beliefs. I wish you luck with your dogs.
Fawn you really seem to be focused in on the finished product rather than the theory behind the training and what those titles mean.
I am sorry you won't open your eyes beyond your set beliefs. I wish you luck with your dogs.
by Sunsilver on 06 August 2012 - 17:08
Excellent response, Dallas! I was going to say something similar myself, using terms from my riding days, but you beat me to it.
I cannot believe the rudeness of some people on this site. Just because someone is not knowledgeable in YOUR area of expertise doesn't mean they are ignorant when it comes to dogs.
I'm sure Dallas would love to do schutzhund with her dogs, but she is PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED, and, as she has pointed out, that training takes priority.
If she does take up any of these sports, it is going to be a much greater challenge for her than for able-bodied folks. Kudos to her for even WANTING to try it, and risk being laughed at by you know-it-alls!
I cannot believe the rudeness of some people on this site. Just because someone is not knowledgeable in YOUR area of expertise doesn't mean they are ignorant when it comes to dogs.
I'm sure Dallas would love to do schutzhund with her dogs, but she is PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED, and, as she has pointed out, that training takes priority.
If she does take up any of these sports, it is going to be a much greater challenge for her than for able-bodied folks. Kudos to her for even WANTING to try it, and risk being laughed at by you know-it-alls!
by Psycht on 06 August 2012 - 18:08
Fawndallas - with all due respect, I never said that Rose's service work meant nothing. Service work is one of the most noble and important jobs a dog can do. I was merely pointing out that your assumptions about various dog sports was incorrect. I would note that this thread was started because you were specifically asking about *sports* to do with dog and people responded based on that idea.
It is sometimes hard to interpret a person's intent reading the written word on the internet so surely you can understand how individuals could misinterpret what you meant when you stated that obedience was simply teaching tricks and you were looking for something that made the dogs think more just like it appears that you misinterpreted comments by some of us to mean that a service dog means nothing.
YR - I do not see people laughing nor do I think that anyone has denied that an individual who is handicapped has more challenges to overcome in order to participate in certain activities. With that said, I stand by my comment that the best way for anyone to learn about a sport - handicapped or not - is to leave the computer and observe in person.
It is sometimes hard to interpret a person's intent reading the written word on the internet so surely you can understand how individuals could misinterpret what you meant when you stated that obedience was simply teaching tricks and you were looking for something that made the dogs think more just like it appears that you misinterpreted comments by some of us to mean that a service dog means nothing.
YR - I do not see people laughing nor do I think that anyone has denied that an individual who is handicapped has more challenges to overcome in order to participate in certain activities. With that said, I stand by my comment that the best way for anyone to learn about a sport - handicapped or not - is to leave the computer and observe in person.
by workingdogz on 06 August 2012 - 18:08
Seriously sunsilver?
If I heard anyone laugh at these admirable people
in these links, I'd go right ahead and knock their
face out the back of their head for them.
There was a video years ago of a woman with
NO ARMS doing schutzhund.
She threw the dumbbell with her foot.
Tom Riche was legally blind and not only
trained & trialled his own dogs, he was an
incredibly talented helper.
Beth & Remy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_nyE00_VKM
Jason & Dante
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPOKVnRlB0c
Tom Riche working a dog:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NHdVjLEJ0A
If I heard anyone laugh at these admirable people
in these links, I'd go right ahead and knock their
face out the back of their head for them.
There was a video years ago of a woman with
NO ARMS doing schutzhund.
She threw the dumbbell with her foot.
Tom Riche was legally blind and not only
trained & trialled his own dogs, he was an
incredibly talented helper.
Beth & Remy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_nyE00_VKM
Jason & Dante
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPOKVnRlB0c
Tom Riche working a dog:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NHdVjLEJ0A
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