where do i even start? - Page 2

hello ladyh, Kieths comment may have been straight to the point, but I don't think it was mean.

A lot of folks on this board feel that a GSD should meet the minium requirements set by the SV before being considered breed worthy. Schutzhund title, breed survey and certified H&E. Others go further and feel that the dog must be able to perform and produce in real life work such as Law Enforcement and military. There is quite a bit of bickering between the minimilist and the more hard core.

What you won't find is much support for those who feel they are the best judge of what is right, they are asked to prove it.

Anyway, I absolutely understand hard times in life and am happy to see you making a come back. But you will most likely be very disappointed here if you're hoping for support without proving your dog.

best to you,
Rik

To reverse the question, what are YOUR answers to 1 & 2?  This is key. Why do you want to breed?
 

Without wishing to sound negative, you have been given good advice regarding working and titling your dog. This puts any thought of breeding years down the line. IMO simply wanting to offer 'good quality dogs in your area' isn't a reason for breeding. Having neither shown nor titled your own dog (for whatever reason) you have no way of knowing whether she will produce good ;quality; dogs. There is no danger of the GSD breed dying out.  There will always be those committed to following the path that you are being recommended to follow - be in the breed for years, work your dog, title your dog if it's your thing - show your dog. Find out what she is made of. 

Items 1 - 4 in your post are not negatives at all, unless you see them that way. Think about why you keep getting asked the same questions or coming across the same statements - there must be a good reason.

Are you going to immerse yourself in the breed? If yes, great..find a mentor and go for it. Do you have the time for this? If you don't then leave it to those who do and let them do the breeding and better the breed. I am sure that people in your area will be able to find a good quality dog either in rescue, or as many people do, travel much, much further afield for the right dog, from the right breeding.

If you were looking to just 'get around' the points on your list (which is how it comes across) then I think you have to think about how you would be 'bettering the breed'.

What are your bitches health results like, as you made no mention of her health status in your post ?
What is her pedigree? Is she from show stock, working stock?


 

If Maya had not had EPI I probably would have had one litter. I am 54 years old and a responsible adult and have never had the chance in my lifetime to have bred a dog and had the fun of one litter of puppies.

I think there is nothing wrong with having your female bred and having a litter of puppies as long as your dog is healthy and you find good homes for the puppies.

Soon I will be old and oh, how I wish I would have had just one litter of puppies from one of my dogs I have owned over the years.

I don't think anyone has the right to call you down if you want to have a litter of puppies so long as you are responsible and can find them good homes.  Good Lord, you only go around this world once and you don't want to have too many regrets.

I am so glad my neighbour had a litter of shepherds last summer, I was rolling on the ground hugging and kissing these little guys... it was pathetic, but I don't think I have had that much fun in years.

in reality, there are few dogs that benefit the breed by reproducing.  even titles cannot guarantee that a dog is breed worthy.  many many well titled dogs have produced hundreds of disappointing progeny.  even an exquisite example of a stud dog cannot be expected to make up for failings in the dam.  likewise is also true.  an exceptional dam cannot compensate for serious deficiencies in a stud dog.  both partners have to "bring something to the table."  hopefully, those somethings will compliment the other partner.  breeding dogs is not like mixing paint.  if it were that simple, everyone could do it with success.
pjp

I really feel you need to find an experienced trainer/mentor person very knowledgeable in the breed and get an evaluation done on your girl.  Then find a job for her to excel in and have fun and enjoy her and if you even THINK that breeding is a walk in the park, think again.  It is a HUGH responsibility for the life of those puppies and their health and well being.  Whatever you decide I hope it is for the benefit of the breed;  that is what a responsible breeder does.  Nan

thank you all for your advice. If you think of more, don't be afraid to post it. I am not going to be hopping on the breeder train any time soon. I guess it came off that way. My main goal right now is to learn as much as i can about everything.

Again my plans to start fresh with a new pup from working lines was put to a stop when i had a miscarriage (leave it to me to get pregnant on the IUD) a month ago. I had a beautiful, healthy pup picked out of a working line of dogs. But i was not about to bring a new pup into our home when i was still recovering mentally and physcially. Life is awesome uh?

I never stated it would be a "walk in the park." i've had my fair share of trouble and stress...i never expect things to be easy. Ever. I bred and raised Shih Tzus. Full blooded but not papered and all went to awesome homes. I had only one pair of dogs. I wasn't a puppy mill by any means.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1837683 <--- my girl's pedagree. Her picture is not a side pic...i didn't notice that requirement until i already posted. (>.<)

I guess I came off as rediculious in my first post...that was not my intention.

2) "Your dog doesn't have any titles and isn't a show dog then you shouldn't breed!"
-She comes from a wonderfull kennel that breeds for health, temperment, soundness and loyalty. She is a lovely dog and would make a wonderful mother. i believe she could produce some great pups. She is strong, healthy, loyal, wonderful temperment and a GREAT dog. Are titles all it is about anymore? what happened to breeding to better the breed?


In my opinion "great temperament" and "nice pet qualities" should be part and parcel of any breeding program; like having the correct number of legs, two ears, and a tail.

Strong, healthy, loyal... these too are attributes one expects in any dog. They shouldn't be considered -special- but ideally should be considered part of the standard package of a dog.

A mutt can have the attributes you mentioned. That does not mean it ought be bred; nor does it mean the offspring will poses those same characteristics.


On that same note, just because a dog has titles or is a show dog, that doesn't mean it should be bred if it has a lousy disposition, suffers health problems, is nervy or unstable and aggressive. Unfortunately, some people only look at titles as a measure of breedworthiness. That's as one-sided as merely looking at personality. In my opinion, a dog -- of any breed -- must be conformationally correct, sound of body and mind, and have a good temperament before it should be considered breedworthy. Of course, depending on breed, some might be more gregatious like a lab, or aloof like a rottweiler. However, no dog ought be skittish or dangerously aggressive.

I do not think breeds can be "bettered" by breeding soley for health or temperament. That simply maintains integrity. Same with breeding titled (working or conformation) individuals. The breed should maintain form, functionality, and the brains and disposition to do it's job, and yet stay within standard for the given breed. Of course, standards are open to interpretation, which results in so many different "types" within breeds, but I digress. The point I'd like to raise is: without showing or titling, how can you assess your dog's correctness to breed standard? Most people, myself included, are very partial to their dogs. However, there's a certain amount of bias there. Sure, there's also bias in showing... but, if a dog regularly places well in conformation, or does well at trials, it increases the likelihood that the dog is truly as good as thge owner thinks it is

"I am not going to be hopping on the breeder train any time soon. I guess it came off that way."

It did indeed and for someone like myself who has been in the breed for decades and on this forum essentially from its inception, your initial post sounded very much like those I have been reading here every few weeks for years from people who come here seeking not to breed good dogs but who are looking for validation for their bad breeding decisions.  I apologize for being somewhat abrupt but love me or hate me, I doubt there are many here who would argue that my interest is, was or ever will be about anything other than what is best for the breed and what is best for the dogs.

If you are serious about breeding really good dogs, don't be one of those people.  Listen to the advice you are offered, learn and keep an open mind.

Am I correct in what I am reading that you did not end up buying the sable pup you were looking at recently from Tonti Trail?  If so, you dodged a bullet.  That is not where you want to start a breeding program.

Yes, titles and breed surveys are important.  It isn't an exact science but its the best we have at evaluating breedworthiness.  Some measure of a dog's worth from what we all hope is an unbiased third party is always better than none.  All of us love our dogs and think they're the best thing since sliced bread...an independent assessment is often our reality check.

Finally, no, Leila is not a dog you want to breed.  I understand that you love her and I'm sure she is a fine dog but her pedigree tells you nothing about temperament, hips, elbows, working ability, etc.  If you want to breed really good dogs, you need to know these things.  Love and cherish her, appreciate her for what she is, hug her every day and enjoy her for all of the things she adds to your life while asking very little in return but don't breed her.

If you are truly interested, I will mentor you as best I can and will defer you to those more knowledgeable than myself when I can't answer your questions.  I think your heart's in the right place...at least I hope it is...and I'll do whatever I can to help.
 

The best way to learn about your breed is to go out and work your dog. Other than working with shepherds, I've worked several other breeds, did rescue for 9 years and took in dogs that I thought I might like to have one day. After working them and seeing what the breed was all about, I came back to shepherds. Although I will say I still love Neos.

Something happens to a person when they are out with their dog. Other than creating a bond with that dog, its really fun. You get to know your dog, weaknesses and strengths, the good and bad. Its great to have a dog that understands multiple languages, can do a variety of tricks, has good obedience, can maybe even protect you if need be ( I have one of those who is now sick). You learn about the breed. Maybe you will get lucky and get to train another shepherd, teach that dog a few things, learn about the similarities your dog might have to another shepherd. And after a few years go by and you have had the chance to train a few more dogs (foster for a rescue its a great way to do this) then you will see some of the things we are talking about. You think we are being mean and it isn't meant to be that way. But until you can work your dog and maybe a few more, then you will never know just what a shepherd is really all about.

My last litter was about 9 years ago....after being in dogs all my life I bred what I thought was a great dog. Had good work ethic, super bonded to me, could take anywhere. A really nice dog.............that ended up with one bad hip. All that I thought I had done right didn't work out. OMG I had to start over. Got a Slovak import that was given to me. OUTSTANDING dog...........died of a congenital disease.....once again having to start over. Now once again I am getting a puppy. God I pray this one works out!

But through all these dogs I've learned about what shepherds are all about and as I said before trying to jump ahead before you really know what this breed has to offer, other than being some ones pet, just isn't fair to the breed.

Barb

Start by going to trials and shows. Learning about pedigrees. Learning what makes a good working dog a good working dog. Find a club to train with. Ask questions and learn before you buy that next puppy.

I know life gets in the way but breeding is hard and it is hard to do it right. Look at your dog honestly and ask yourself what makes her not breed worthy? Look for every single fault you can find. Then ask yourself if your dog has something so special to offer the breed that it out weighs her faults. No dog is perfect but you want to make sure that the good compensates for the bad. In order to do that you need to really study the breed.

Good luck.