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by OGBS on 06 October 2012 - 07:10
You've been given some great advice, especially so from Barb (Bhaugh).
Read her words carefully (I'd even copy them and save them in a file, I doubt she'd mind), and then go back and re-read them from time to time. The advice she gives you about training is invaluable, regardless of titles (though I do believe in them highly).
I posted this in another thread and I am going to stick with this: If it were a requirement for every dog from every breed in this country to be bred that they achieve, at a minimum, a BH then we would see a lot better dogs being bred and a lot less of them being bred. I'll even add this, the breeder should have to also train a dog at least once every three years to a BH in order to be a breeder. With training you will learn so much about what should and shouldn't be bred by learning to understand what makes your dog and other dogs tick. This isn't achieved in a short period of time. Her suggestion about fostering and training rescue dogs is some of the best advice she gave you. I have learned more about how to read dogs and understand them from all the rescue dogs I have taken in, rehabbed, trained and re-homed over the past 13 years than all of the purebred GSD's I have owned or been associated with. When you can read and understand dogs that you have almost no clue or zero clue as to what mix of breed they are, and in turn, have very little to rely on from a temperament standpoint, or breed charcteristics that you can rely on, then you will truly see how amazing it is when you are around a well bred, well tempered, and intelligent dog. GSD's in comparison, especially the really good ones, are easy to train and a pure joy to be around on a daily basis. If you don't take the time to learn all of this, you are truly missing the best part of having these dogs.
Read her words carefully (I'd even copy them and save them in a file, I doubt she'd mind), and then go back and re-read them from time to time. The advice she gives you about training is invaluable, regardless of titles (though I do believe in them highly).
I posted this in another thread and I am going to stick with this: If it were a requirement for every dog from every breed in this country to be bred that they achieve, at a minimum, a BH then we would see a lot better dogs being bred and a lot less of them being bred. I'll even add this, the breeder should have to also train a dog at least once every three years to a BH in order to be a breeder. With training you will learn so much about what should and shouldn't be bred by learning to understand what makes your dog and other dogs tick. This isn't achieved in a short period of time. Her suggestion about fostering and training rescue dogs is some of the best advice she gave you. I have learned more about how to read dogs and understand them from all the rescue dogs I have taken in, rehabbed, trained and re-homed over the past 13 years than all of the purebred GSD's I have owned or been associated with. When you can read and understand dogs that you have almost no clue or zero clue as to what mix of breed they are, and in turn, have very little to rely on from a temperament standpoint, or breed charcteristics that you can rely on, then you will truly see how amazing it is when you are around a well bred, well tempered, and intelligent dog. GSD's in comparison, especially the really good ones, are easy to train and a pure joy to be around on a daily basis. If you don't take the time to learn all of this, you are truly missing the best part of having these dogs.
by Hundmutter on 06 October 2012 - 08:10
Ladyhaze, you might not need me to add this to the pot after all that has just been said, but it is about points that
haven't yet been covered and it may benefit other people who just drop in to read the thread, and who are thinking
about whether they want to / should breed:
One thing about German Shepherd Dog fanciers (over people in most breeds) is that we trace the breed's origins to
one founder above all, and when he worked on putting the beginnings of the breed together he said right from the
start that it was no good if it was not a working dog, because it was designed as a working dog (whether that was
herding, or the protection & tracking etc that Sports or Armed Forces dogs need to do). Because we have that legacy,
that guidance, we [most of us] take it very seriously. Hence the emphasis on titling.
A lot of people however jumped on the breeding bandwagon over the years who weren't as dedicated; GSDs are
intelligent and versatile and good-looking, and that has led to an awful lot of overbreeding by people who have lost
sight of the need to be able to work, and ignored health factors, in the rush to make money by selling GSDs as pets.
Or as "Things to win with".
That is reflected in other breeds too, but is particularly noticeable in what is still probably "the most popular breed in
the world", and escalated the numbers involved.
Consider this - you said "I'm not aiming to take over the world with dogs" in having one litter; you told us that you used
to produce pups with your ShidTzus.
Little dogs have an average of 4 in a litter; GSDs average about 6 and can easily have 10 or 12. Obviously you are
not going to keep all of them yourself ? So not only will you have a lot more good buyers/homes to find for this one litter ...
but you are responsible for the existance of those pups; when they become breeding adults, you still have a responsibilty
AT ONE REMOVE for the puppies THEY are allowed to go on to produce, over which you'll have no or very little control.
So: do the sums.
haven't yet been covered and it may benefit other people who just drop in to read the thread, and who are thinking
about whether they want to / should breed:
One thing about German Shepherd Dog fanciers (over people in most breeds) is that we trace the breed's origins to
one founder above all, and when he worked on putting the beginnings of the breed together he said right from the
start that it was no good if it was not a working dog, because it was designed as a working dog (whether that was
herding, or the protection & tracking etc that Sports or Armed Forces dogs need to do). Because we have that legacy,
that guidance, we [most of us] take it very seriously. Hence the emphasis on titling.
A lot of people however jumped on the breeding bandwagon over the years who weren't as dedicated; GSDs are
intelligent and versatile and good-looking, and that has led to an awful lot of overbreeding by people who have lost
sight of the need to be able to work, and ignored health factors, in the rush to make money by selling GSDs as pets.
Or as "Things to win with".
That is reflected in other breeds too, but is particularly noticeable in what is still probably "the most popular breed in
the world", and escalated the numbers involved.
Consider this - you said "I'm not aiming to take over the world with dogs" in having one litter; you told us that you used
to produce pups with your ShidTzus.
Little dogs have an average of 4 in a litter; GSDs average about 6 and can easily have 10 or 12. Obviously you are
not going to keep all of them yourself ? So not only will you have a lot more good buyers/homes to find for this one litter ...
but you are responsible for the existance of those pups; when they become breeding adults, you still have a responsibilty
AT ONE REMOVE for the puppies THEY are allowed to go on to produce, over which you'll have no or very little control.
So: do the sums.
by ILGSDs on 06 October 2012 - 08:10
IMO, titles do not make a good German Shepherd. Often, health is overlooked in order to breed dogs with good titles. The GS is an issue plagued breed. They are prone to a variety of health issues, and they are shorter lived than they should be. I believe this is due to "breeding paper" so to speak. I am mainly speaking about show lines. I do not know much about breeding working lines but I believe that they suffer from similar issues that are overly prevelant because of the intrest in breeding to the best looking or hardest dog. My personal opinion is that a breeder of German Shepherds does not have to be overly concered about achieving a working title. If they can take their dog out, have people pet it, have it around other dogs and kids, and have it act relaxed and happy, that is a good dog. If said dog comes from healthy, long-lived lines, and has good hips/elbows, is free of known health issues, and has not passed on any health issues, this should be the first requirement. Finally, since the GS is a working dog, it should display the breed standard temperament: highly intelligent, easy to please, level headed yet protective and alert, desire to work. This is for general family pet, a dog that is a nice pet but could do a sport also. If you are breeding for a specific job like police K-9 or herding dog you would want the titles or proven work history then. I can tell you from first hand experience at least with show lines great titles on the parents do not a good pup make. Not in terms of health, long livity or even temperament. I think titles, while good, have become over glorified and the main objective: a good looking, stable minded, healthy, easy maintence dog that could function as pet or work dog, has been overlooked.(Its got TITLES! Its PROVEN to be this, this, this! Sure..one would think so, but it hasnt been so with my personal experiences) SCHH titles the way I see them, working line dogs are too high maintence to function as a pet for most people, and showlines are so overbred for looks that their temperments and health are crap. So my conclusion is, if youve managed to get a good, healthy, stableminded dog that has a nice shepherd look, that likes to work, why not breed it? Ill bet your puppy buyers all end up happy, the dogs will have good homes and live good lives, and the breed will live on as something people want, that is what is important. (Just as a note I was interested in breeding for a time but realized how difficult, dicey, and expensive it truly was, and decided it was not something that I wanted to do. Ive realized that rescue is much more rewarding. Still, I will always want to own a purebred GS. I love how intelligent and loyal they are. I am saddened by how unhealthy and unstable much of the breed is however and wish breeders would stop breeding for $$ and start breeding for the dog.)
by Rik on 06 October 2012 - 12:10
I see a lot of dogs with "titles" that I would not own, breed to or accept progeny from. Also I've seen the "titled" dogs that do not know even basic commands.
I don't think titles were ever intended to be the end all, be all in the GSD, but rather the starting point in proving a dog is breed worthy. And plenty of people do it the right way, but the few who don't sure provide a convienent excuse to those who don't want to or have dogs that could never do it.
All this "I have a wonderful GSD, good character, would lay down his life for me, yada, yada , yada, good conformation, good for sport, good for work" without proving it is just words and opinion.
Reminds me of AKC days when lots of folks had "best of breed" dogs in the back yard, but they could never actually go out and win a BOB.
jmo,
Rik
I don't think titles were ever intended to be the end all, be all in the GSD, but rather the starting point in proving a dog is breed worthy. And plenty of people do it the right way, but the few who don't sure provide a convienent excuse to those who don't want to or have dogs that could never do it.
All this "I have a wonderful GSD, good character, would lay down his life for me, yada, yada , yada, good conformation, good for sport, good for work" without proving it is just words and opinion.
Reminds me of AKC days when lots of folks had "best of breed" dogs in the back yard, but they could never actually go out and win a BOB.
jmo,
Rik
by Keith Grossman on 06 October 2012 - 14:10
Rik!
by susie on 06 October 2012 - 15:10
ILGSDs: If they can take their dog out, have people pet it, have it around other dogs and kids, and have it act relaxed and happy, that is a good dog.
But maybe one day it´s no German Shepherd any more... German Shepherd dogs are NO pets, why the hell should I breed them suitable for pet homes ?!? There are hundreds of PET breeds out there people can choose from.
Please, don´t breed a German Shepherd as a pet!
In almost every litter there are 1 or 2 puppies suitable for "pet homes" - fine - but these dogs are NOT breedworthy!
But maybe one day it´s no German Shepherd any more... German Shepherd dogs are NO pets, why the hell should I breed them suitable for pet homes ?!? There are hundreds of PET breeds out there people can choose from.
Please, don´t breed a German Shepherd as a pet!
In almost every litter there are 1 or 2 puppies suitable for "pet homes" - fine - but these dogs are NOT breedworthy!
by ladyhaze on 06 October 2012 - 15:10
Keith you are correct. I did not buy the pup. I had my own unexpected and heartbreaking miscarraige to worry about just days before i was supposed to go pick her up. (My second one, having to relive that was not plesant) It was my new husband and I's first child together. Though it was unplanned, every little heartbeat is a life and we were shocked and excited about it. It would have been horrible timing to bring a pup into our family (no matter where it was from). I didn't want what happened when i got Leila to happen again...where i wouldn't have the sufficiant time to spend with a new pup when it was most important.
by ILGSDs on 06 October 2012 - 16:10
Susie, I think that every GS should have a working ability, but also a "pet" temperment, where it can live with a family and not be too high strung or aggressive. I think there is an issue with the breed where a lot of the show lines lack working ability and are also flawed tempermentally (lots of fear aggression) while a lot of the working lines are too much for anyone other than a professional who is willing to dedicate siginificant time to the dog and are often crated/kenneled regardless. I know that the GS needs to be able to work but unless it is bred for a specific, confilicting purpose (like for work where very high drives are necessary) it should be a good pet just as importantly. My GS are pets, why did I get a GS for a pet? It is highly intelligent and easy to train, with great handler focus and desire to please. Labs and goldens are great dogs but not shepherds. There is no protection instinct. My showline GS I would not count on to defend me (which is bad) but people will think twice about crossing a shepherd regardless while a lab or a golden is automatically assumed friendly.
by susie on 06 October 2012 - 17:10
German Shepherds are no pets - and they don´t need to be...
As long as people don´t understand this, every year hundreds of Germans will be dumped ending up in shelters.
If you know how to train a working dog said dog might become your family pet, but this special breed is not suitable for everyone.
There is no RinTinTin or Kommissar Rex, owners of German Shepherds need to know what they are doing!
But why should breeder water down a working breed, only because some people are looking for a pet looking like a German Shepherd?
As long as people don´t understand this, every year hundreds of Germans will be dumped ending up in shelters.
If you know how to train a working dog said dog might become your family pet, but this special breed is not suitable for everyone.
There is no RinTinTin or Kommissar Rex, owners of German Shepherds need to know what they are doing!
But why should breeder water down a working breed, only because some people are looking for a pet looking like a German Shepherd?
by Sehr Gut Wesen on 06 October 2012 - 19:10
Given that your dog is stable minded, free of any illnesses or skin problems, and healthy the next step to take is to get your dog x-rayed for hips and elbows and send to OFA for evaluation. Out of 102,750 GSD tested 19% are dysplasia hips. 19.1% elbows. That means 1 in 5 GSDs is affected.
http://www.offa.org/stats_hip.html
So this is serious and the responsible thing to do.
The dog should be Fair, Good, or Excellent. Have this done by an experience Vet that has done lots of OFA. Proper placement is crucial. Once you have your dog evaluated and passing OFA (fair or better) then order a DM test kits from OFA. Here is the link
https://secure.offa.org/cart.html
For only $65 you can know if your dog is Clear, Carrier, or At Risk.
There is no excuse for not getting your dog tested if you want to breed your dog.
DM testing and Hip/Elbow evaluations that are passing are far more important than titles!
This is valuable information that should be done for the betterment of the offspring.
If your dog is a carrier, then do not breed to another carrier.
If you do not know what DM is click here http://www.caninegeneticdiseases.net/DM/basicDM.htm
Out of 2,579 German Shepherds tested only 50% are clear.
http://www.offa.org/stats_dna.html?dnatest=DM
Again, no excuse to not test for the betterment of the breed.
So lets say your dog passes OFA or A stamp or Pinn Hip etc. and the DM test results tell you what you need to know for choosing a stud, given he is tested too you are only 1 baby step ahead in the process. You must have a place and lots of time for the puppies. You must know how to feed and care for puppies and the dam. You must have extra money saved up for Vet bills. You must do health exams and 1st shots. They can not run through your house and not be left in the back yard. Note a 7 week old puppy is around 10 lbs. They must have warm dry shelter and a place to run and poop constantly. You must clean this up 3 times a day. If one falls ill you must know the signs and do not delay treatment. I can not emphasize enough that you need Vet money saved up ahead of time. This is not a money making biz. If you do not have funds to pay for unexpected C-section or Mastitis and 25 other things that can and will happen don't go into this.
Lastly and unfortunately the most overlooked issue is marketing. You will need a contract/guarantee (or should anyway) for the buyers. How much will you sale these puppies for? Where will you market these puppies so that they will have good homes at 8 weeks of age? Do you have a good website ready and know how to use it? You need this so the Buyers can get information on the parents and updated puppy photos etc. etc. Do you have a good digital camera? Because your going to have to take lots of photos of puppies, and anyone that has tried to take photos of puppies at 6-8 weeks of age knows this is a hair pulling experience. You will need help and support from family and friends. If you skip any of the step above, and I've only brushed the surface, you will likely not find good homes for your puppies and/or the whole experience will be a heart wrenching horribly financial disaster. The goal is to break even. People are not going to pay for a puppy that they do not know anything about. They need to see the parent dogs (health and photos) and good photos of the puppies. Website is a must! Do you have at least 3 extra hours a day for this? Sounds like a lot, but consider phone calls, emails, web page updates, research, vet visits, and heaven forbid bottle feeding if that happens. This is not counting the socializing, feeding, and poop patrol every day. Meds, Worming and shots fit in there somewhere. You must have the time!!
So lets say your all ready and have all the skills and finances prepared then your on the right track to find a mentor. There is way more info you will need and experience is the route to take.
http://www.offa.org/stats_hip.html
So this is serious and the responsible thing to do.
The dog should be Fair, Good, or Excellent. Have this done by an experience Vet that has done lots of OFA. Proper placement is crucial. Once you have your dog evaluated and passing OFA (fair or better) then order a DM test kits from OFA. Here is the link
https://secure.offa.org/cart.html
For only $65 you can know if your dog is Clear, Carrier, or At Risk.
There is no excuse for not getting your dog tested if you want to breed your dog.
DM testing and Hip/Elbow evaluations that are passing are far more important than titles!
This is valuable information that should be done for the betterment of the offspring.
If your dog is a carrier, then do not breed to another carrier.
If you do not know what DM is click here http://www.caninegeneticdiseases.net/DM/basicDM.htm
Out of 2,579 German Shepherds tested only 50% are clear.
http://www.offa.org/stats_dna.html?dnatest=DM
Again, no excuse to not test for the betterment of the breed.
So lets say your dog passes OFA or A stamp or Pinn Hip etc. and the DM test results tell you what you need to know for choosing a stud, given he is tested too you are only 1 baby step ahead in the process. You must have a place and lots of time for the puppies. You must know how to feed and care for puppies and the dam. You must have extra money saved up for Vet bills. You must do health exams and 1st shots. They can not run through your house and not be left in the back yard. Note a 7 week old puppy is around 10 lbs. They must have warm dry shelter and a place to run and poop constantly. You must clean this up 3 times a day. If one falls ill you must know the signs and do not delay treatment. I can not emphasize enough that you need Vet money saved up ahead of time. This is not a money making biz. If you do not have funds to pay for unexpected C-section or Mastitis and 25 other things that can and will happen don't go into this.
Lastly and unfortunately the most overlooked issue is marketing. You will need a contract/guarantee (or should anyway) for the buyers. How much will you sale these puppies for? Where will you market these puppies so that they will have good homes at 8 weeks of age? Do you have a good website ready and know how to use it? You need this so the Buyers can get information on the parents and updated puppy photos etc. etc. Do you have a good digital camera? Because your going to have to take lots of photos of puppies, and anyone that has tried to take photos of puppies at 6-8 weeks of age knows this is a hair pulling experience. You will need help and support from family and friends. If you skip any of the step above, and I've only brushed the surface, you will likely not find good homes for your puppies and/or the whole experience will be a heart wrenching horribly financial disaster. The goal is to break even. People are not going to pay for a puppy that they do not know anything about. They need to see the parent dogs (health and photos) and good photos of the puppies. Website is a must! Do you have at least 3 extra hours a day for this? Sounds like a lot, but consider phone calls, emails, web page updates, research, vet visits, and heaven forbid bottle feeding if that happens. This is not counting the socializing, feeding, and poop patrol every day. Meds, Worming and shots fit in there somewhere. You must have the time!!
So lets say your all ready and have all the skills and finances prepared then your on the right track to find a mentor. There is way more info you will need and experience is the route to take.
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