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by Hundmutter on 06 October 2012 - 19:10
The trouble is Susie that too many breeders have, over the years, bred their watered down version; and it is
precisely that watering down IMO that has led to it being such a devided breed these days. Ideally if everyone
had stuck to the letter of Von Stephanitz 's 'recipe' we wouldn't have the differences / problems ILGSDS lists.
We would have kept a working/pastoral dog breed, owned by people who all needed it to work, over a sort of
related spectrum of degrees of competance in the various fields, (and of course it would have been their good
companion dog also)- but not taken on by the masses, many of whom are merely interested in something
roughly Shepherd shaped but in a more interesting colour, and who don't want to even exercise a dog properly,
let alone seriously train / work it. And yes I am including some of the Show world people in that description.
But who then dub the resulting dog as unmanageable, hyper or aggressive
etc, and express surprise that it may not be so easily trainable as a family pet as they expected.
I know not every pet owner fits that description exactly, but on a wider overview ...
In one of these 'Should we mix SL and WL ?' threads, someone described a really excellent temperament, at some
length, as the 'ideal', but hard to achieve - and there was then a 'blank' when I pointed out that he'd just described
the dog as Max saw it, as it was originally meant to be.
And I know the breed 'belongs' to you Germans, but I think the SV has at times been as complicit in this watering down
as other European / UK breeders, American breeders, Czech breeders ... and that's not even mentioning those people
in Germany who have bred 'outside' the SV structure and guidance.
precisely that watering down IMO that has led to it being such a devided breed these days. Ideally if everyone
had stuck to the letter of Von Stephanitz 's 'recipe' we wouldn't have the differences / problems ILGSDS lists.
We would have kept a working/pastoral dog breed, owned by people who all needed it to work, over a sort of
related spectrum of degrees of competance in the various fields, (and of course it would have been their good
companion dog also)- but not taken on by the masses, many of whom are merely interested in something
roughly Shepherd shaped but in a more interesting colour, and who don't want to even exercise a dog properly,
let alone seriously train / work it. And yes I am including some of the Show world people in that description.
But who then dub the resulting dog as unmanageable, hyper or aggressive
etc, and express surprise that it may not be so easily trainable as a family pet as they expected.
I know not every pet owner fits that description exactly, but on a wider overview ...
In one of these 'Should we mix SL and WL ?' threads, someone described a really excellent temperament, at some
length, as the 'ideal', but hard to achieve - and there was then a 'blank' when I pointed out that he'd just described
the dog as Max saw it, as it was originally meant to be.
And I know the breed 'belongs' to you Germans, but I think the SV has at times been as complicit in this watering down
as other European / UK breeders, American breeders, Czech breeders ... and that's not even mentioning those people
in Germany who have bred 'outside' the SV structure and guidance.
by susie on 06 October 2012 - 20:10
"And I know the breed 'belongs' to you Germans, ..."
A German "invented" this breed, but the German Shepherd is spread all over the world for decades now....
I know the breed is watered down to some point, but it´s the responsibility of each single breeder to look for working ability and health, not the responsibility of SV, WDA, USA,....
At the end of the day the breeder chooses stud and dam, nobody else.
But that´s not my point - I really don´t understand WHY people try to breed working dogs that fit into pet homes ???
Less breeder, less German Shepherds = less problems
A German "invented" this breed, but the German Shepherd is spread all over the world for decades now....
I know the breed is watered down to some point, but it´s the responsibility of each single breeder to look for working ability and health, not the responsibility of SV, WDA, USA,....
At the end of the day the breeder chooses stud and dam, nobody else.
But that´s not my point - I really don´t understand WHY people try to breed working dogs that fit into pet homes ???
Less breeder, less German Shepherds = less problems
by Hundmutter on 06 October 2012 - 22:10
We're not really in disagreement; just arguing from different angles.
By attributing GSDs to their country of origin, I was trying to say that the rest of the world didn't have a
right to disregard those origins, in favour of doing it 'their way'.
By attributing GSDs to their country of origin, I was trying to say that the rest of the world didn't have a
right to disregard those origins, in favour of doing it 'their way'.
by susie on 06 October 2012 - 22:10
To the OP: Do what several people already suggested. Go to a club, train and title, follow the requirements of SV.
As a novice you may need 1 or 2 years, a lot of time and money. You will see different dogs with different temperaments. If you don´t have enough time or money to do so, don´t breed. If you are not able to achieve the official breeding requirements, don´t breed. If you are not interested in all of this, don´t even think about breeding German Shepherds.
As a novice you may need 1 or 2 years, a lot of time and money. You will see different dogs with different temperaments. If you don´t have enough time or money to do so, don´t breed. If you are not able to achieve the official breeding requirements, don´t breed. If you are not interested in all of this, don´t even think about breeding German Shepherds.
by Abby Normal on 07 October 2012 - 17:10
Susie, if the GSD was not widely popular and in *pet* homes, the breed would have died out long ago. There is insufficient demand for a solely working dog of any breed in this world any more, even if you included sport. In any case, the original GSD was envisioned as a working dog which could also be a calm and balanced family dog when not being asked to perform it's work. The dogoften thought of as the Universal GSD, and which I believe some are trying to recapture when they think of SL/WL breedings. I believe it should be that the dog has the 'ability' and desire to work and it should be the goal to maintain this as part of the GSD 'package'.
The problem arises when people who take on the GSD as a companion do not acknowledge and utilise it's intelligence and (hopefully) it's innate desire to 'work' in some way, and treat it as a 'couch potato' and do no activity with it whatsoever. Then indeed they have chosen the wrong breed and do it a great dis-service, as do those in the show world to whom Hundmutter refers.
I do think that *work* is often misinterpreted as protection/bitework, but we must remember that this is not the only work/activity that the GSD can do, and is not the only yardstick it should be measured by. But in terms of testing 'courage', the TSB seems to be the only method we have.
The problem arises when people who take on the GSD as a companion do not acknowledge and utilise it's intelligence and (hopefully) it's innate desire to 'work' in some way, and treat it as a 'couch potato' and do no activity with it whatsoever. Then indeed they have chosen the wrong breed and do it a great dis-service, as do those in the show world to whom Hundmutter refers.
I do think that *work* is often misinterpreted as protection/bitework, but we must remember that this is not the only work/activity that the GSD can do, and is not the only yardstick it should be measured by. But in terms of testing 'courage', the TSB seems to be the only method we have.
by Red Sable on 07 October 2012 - 17:10
Good post Abby. :)
by susie on 07 October 2012 - 19:10
The problem arises when people who take on the GSD as a companion do not acknowledge and utilise it's intelligence and (hopefully) it's innate desire to 'work' in some way, and treat it as a 'couch potato' 
That´s the point - people buy GS because of their reputation, but they don´t know how to handle their temperament. These people cause trouble, and their dogs get problemes.
At that point so called breeders step in the ring, breeding for calm, gentle shepherds, suitable for pet homes. WHY ???
I don´t think that the breed would die out - there is the police, the army, private securities, (some) shepherds, and last but not least thousands of people competing in any kind of dogsport worldwide. Most of these people know how to handle a working dog, and THESE people are able to keep them as pets.
I will never understand why anybody never involved in working dogs AND not willing to train and learn should ever own a German Shepherd ( same with Rottweiler, Dobermann, Malinois, Tervueren, Groenendael, Oftscharka, and so on...).
Just my opinion...
That´s the point - people buy GS because of their reputation, but they don´t know how to handle their temperament. These people cause trouble, and their dogs get problemes.
At that point so called breeders step in the ring, breeding for calm, gentle shepherds, suitable for pet homes. WHY ???
I don´t think that the breed would die out - there is the police, the army, private securities, (some) shepherds, and last but not least thousands of people competing in any kind of dogsport worldwide. Most of these people know how to handle a working dog, and THESE people are able to keep them as pets.
I will never understand why anybody never involved in working dogs AND not willing to train and learn should ever own a German Shepherd ( same with Rottweiler, Dobermann, Malinois, Tervueren, Groenendael, Oftscharka, and so on...).
Just my opinion...
by rtdmmcintyre on 07 October 2012 - 19:10
are there breeders out there breeding for wrong motives? no argument there absolutely. are these very people ruining a good breed? again absolutely. would many of these people stop them if it was in their ability? absolutely. that is one of the blessings of having a popular breed. many people like the looks like what they see on tv, now they want one.
of course you also have to consider that when you have a litter of pups, they are not all of equal value. some may have more drive then others, some may conform better then others etc. etc. each may have value but for different things. some may not be good for working or showing but may have a lower drive temperment that is ok for a less experienced home. but the person who places such a pup may do so on a limited registration so it isn't supposed to be bred so as to not hurt the breed. but that doesn't mean that the new owners won't breed that pup. it just means they can't be registered. many of these ones can be some of the ones in shelters, but are obviously not of low quality.
it really is a multi faceted problem, that could probaly have a book written on it.
of course you also have to consider that when you have a litter of pups, they are not all of equal value. some may have more drive then others, some may conform better then others etc. etc. each may have value but for different things. some may not be good for working or showing but may have a lower drive temperment that is ok for a less experienced home. but the person who places such a pup may do so on a limited registration so it isn't supposed to be bred so as to not hurt the breed. but that doesn't mean that the new owners won't breed that pup. it just means they can't be registered. many of these ones can be some of the ones in shelters, but are obviously not of low quality.
it really is a multi faceted problem, that could probaly have a book written on it.
by Hundmutter on 07 October 2012 - 19:10
Abby, though you make a good general point, do you not feel that GSDs might have survived in adequate
numbers nonetheless, simply BECAUSE they are/were so versatile and adaptable ? Ok, there's little room
for just a herding dog in an industrialised economy, for instance, but the fact that Max saw them as army
dogs as well as shepherd dogs from the start meant them being spread out and utilised differently, from
Guides for the Blind, to Police dogs, to Mountain Rescue, to War Messengers, all in a relatively short period
of time and (at least initially) unlike most single-function 'working' dogs of any other sort. The more they were
used, the more they proved they could be used for. And usually still all great companion dogs, for people who
understood them.
But then the Show fancy on both sides of the Atlantic decided they could do better; they didn't like the shape,
they didn't like the proportions, they didn't like grey sables ... and co-temporarily with that you had the branching
off of those who wanted 'More' and 'More' in sport and protection dogs ... and co-temporarily with them, there
were people seeing how the breed was becoming more available and therefore attractive, who thus started churning
out more and more, so 'everyone could have them that wanted them'. Numbers increased; quality decreased;
the dodgy reputation got underway, fuelled by the popular press. And then further down that line, the obsession
started with producing more of the "rare" colours ... and the SV chopped and changed the tests ... and so we go on.
numbers nonetheless, simply BECAUSE they are/were so versatile and adaptable ? Ok, there's little room
for just a herding dog in an industrialised economy, for instance, but the fact that Max saw them as army
dogs as well as shepherd dogs from the start meant them being spread out and utilised differently, from
Guides for the Blind, to Police dogs, to Mountain Rescue, to War Messengers, all in a relatively short period
of time and (at least initially) unlike most single-function 'working' dogs of any other sort. The more they were
used, the more they proved they could be used for. And usually still all great companion dogs, for people who
understood them.
But then the Show fancy on both sides of the Atlantic decided they could do better; they didn't like the shape,
they didn't like the proportions, they didn't like grey sables ... and co-temporarily with that you had the branching
off of those who wanted 'More' and 'More' in sport and protection dogs ... and co-temporarily with them, there
were people seeing how the breed was becoming more available and therefore attractive, who thus started churning
out more and more, so 'everyone could have them that wanted them'. Numbers increased; quality decreased;
the dodgy reputation got underway, fuelled by the popular press. And then further down that line, the obsession
started with producing more of the "rare" colours ... and the SV chopped and changed the tests ... and so we go on.
by Red Sable on 07 October 2012 - 19:10
GSD's are supposed to be calm. It IS possible to have a calm German Shepherd that has courage, fight drive, the desire to work for it's master and enough drive to make it easily trainable. I've had ONE. LOL.
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