where do i even start? - Page 5

Red Sable: "It IS possible to have a calm German Shepherd that has courage, fight drive, the will to work for it's master ..."

That´s the point - you are the MASTER of your dog - the normal pet owner will love his/her dog with his/her whole heart, will spend a lot of money, but will never be its MASTER. In the best case he/she will ask for help at some point and will learn - in the worst case an accident will happen or the dog will end in a shelter before said accident may happen( the better choice).

There are several possibilities ( don´t forget, I´m German - right now in Germany NO papers without SchH trial and breed survey)

• Breeder only breed for working abilities and are responsible for selling their dogs to the right homes
• Breeder only breed for pets ( no more trials, breed surveys...)
• SV starts to distinguish between working and pet quality = 2 officially departed breeds within one breed

For me a working dog NEEDS to work, a sled dog NEEDS to run, a hunting dog NEEDS to hunt....

There are hundreds of pet breeds out there, there is absolutely no reason to buy a German Shepherd without being willing to train said dog.

So called "breeder" who breed calm, friendly, gentle.... German Shepherds only try to sell dogs looking like Shepherds fitting into the pet families, because these dogs mean less trouble for mommy and daddy.

Training 3 to 5 times the week is time and money expensive, breeding within the SV rules is not that easy, but WHY on earth should we be willing to loose the working abilities of this outstanding breed only because of the lazyness of so called "breeder" or "pet" owner, who are looking for a Golden looking like a Shepherd?

I´ll never get it.

Forgot to say...
Most of you reading this are living in the US. Over there you have the choice to breed dogs with or without trials, breed survey, health certficate...
My personal thank you to all, who decided to stick with the German rules or at least take a look at the working abilities of their breeding prospects.
Kind regards,
Susie

Susie, we should never breed for a Golden in GSD clothing, totally agree! but, I think maybe due to our new training methods? we are now breeding a dog that also doesn't fit the standard, a high energy, high prey dog that would now run the sheep to death, and then eat them instead of herding them.

Most herding dogs are great companions. This is unavoidable as it usually was the herder and his dog out in the middle of nowhere for days on end.  So saying that the GSD is not a "companion" seeks to ignore reality.  That being said, yes, the dog should be capable of work and I would recomend that the OP join a club and strive for a IPO title.  But let's face it, a lot of people will breed regardless of what anyone tells them, and in this case the OP is asking for help/guidance.  IMPO, she will breed her dog.  So, there are two choices;  Hector her as to what many breeders don't do but advise newbies to do, or give her a hand in evaluating her dog on paper and then at a club that will help her title her dog and not give her crap about starting her dog at x, y or z age.  If I had a newly acquired 6 year old GSD, I'd try to title it even if it is not getting bred because it will add value to its lineage of offspring and sibblings.  There are clubs out there that will help, but you still need that thick skin and strong self assurance to help you separate the grain from the chaff of what you'll hear from others.

There is an old Spanish saying "Mucho ayuda el que no estorba" which loosely translates to "Too many cooks spoil the broth".  Rather than being a hindrance to her stated objective, wouldn't we all be better served by helping her go about her objectinve in a way that promotes a good outcome?  Help her along and she may realize that her dog is probably not suited for breeding, but that has to be a threshold that she must cross on her own volition, not because somebody else told her.

  @ Susies pic

Sorry - had to do it... ( translation: I´m sooooo tired! )

You may wonder, but I still stick with showlines ... don´t like the Malisheps....

Living in Germany there is the possibility to see lots of dogs out of any line if you want so. During the last 30+ years I owned several showlines that were able to work for real including police street work ( and believe me, I know, what i´m talking about).

It´s not that easy to find them any more, but it´s still possible.

Charlie - all of my Shepherds have been and are my companions! That´s my first intention!
But in Germany even a herding dog needs to pass a courage test, because the dog should be able to defend its owner and the stock. For breeding the herding dogs need to pass the breed survey, too.
These dogs are working dogs, able to defend, no pets, but great companions.

You are right, the OP should join a club, train her dog, learn and compare.

Hundmutter
If as Susie had originally suggested GSD were only allowed to be owned by *working* homes then absolutely no, I don't feel that it could have survived. The numbers used for Guide Dogs, Military, Police, SAR, Sport - whatever you care to name, all added together are miniscule, absolutely miniscule, compared to the numbers that are in companion homes, and the breed would have had to become too small to be viable.

They are the most amazing utility dogs, and that really is also my point is that we must not limit our view of *working* or sport to only bite/protection work (ScH). A variety of activities are work to the GSD and utilise it's versatility - and much of this is undertaken in what I would call *pet* or companion homes.   I do agree with Susie though, in that people who own a GSD should be prepared to engage in some activity with it as I said before, and not just walk it once round the block twice a week! For me, when you have a GSD you have a partnership rather than a *pet*.

I wonder how dogs from the pound can have less issues with fear aggression than dogs with solid SCHH pedigrees?  It kind of tells me that titles dont mean as much as one would think.