where do i even start? - Page 6

"If they can take their dog out, have people pet it, have it around other dogs and kids, and have it act relaxed and happy, that is a good dog."

Yes thats a well socialized dog and really has a small role to play in the overall definition of breeding dogs.

I used to rescue shepherds from the shelter. Fear aggression (true without physical abuse) was relatively small. Most of the shepherds that end up at shelters, imo, end up there when their owner knew nothing about the breed, didn't socialize or train the dog whatsoever, found out that they had a dog that that was intelligent and NEEDED to have something to do. Most pet owners are either too busy, too lazy, to whatever to work their dog and give him an outlet for his energy. Had they done research before they got a shepherd, the dog wouldn't be sitting at the shelter with a needle in the arm. Actually most of the dogs I got or evaluated were too aggressive and by the time they got to me could not even be placed into a pet home but didn't have the drive to be placed into a working home. So where do they go.......

I agree with Susie, every litter will have pups that will be suitable for pet homes. I feel if even 1/3 of the litter is a true work potential, then the breeder did well. I personally do not think we need a pet trade. If AKC really gave a shit about dogs, they would require working breeds have a title from any venue. A CGC is NOT a title.

Ive worked several breeds not just shepherds. Each breed had their own unique qualities. But without working them, I would have never known what that breed had to offer and why I came back to shepherds. One breed of dog that I really like is a Jadgterrier. Try finding one from a breeder that will even sell to non working home. The gene pool is not the best but breeders work hard at keeping the breed a working dog not a small compact breed suitable for apt living.

IE my point;

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/pet/3318715649.html

or

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/pet/3310747665.html

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/pet/3323406735.html

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/pet/3323732564.html

I have to disagree with those who say breeding for pet homes is causing the Shepherd breed to decline. I think the opposite is true.

One of the biggest problems with the breed is poor nerves. When I was young, the GSD was the # 1 Seeing Eye dog, and also the # 1 police dog. Why does it no longer hold this ranking?

Poor nerves: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/bulletins.read?mnr=153334
 

Gustav: Again, I bring up the point of passive nerve, ask seeing eye foundations why they shy from the German shepherd these days, and its because of lack of uniform nerve. All nerve does not have to be associated with threat that is overt. It takes nerve to become the eyes and ears of a person in all situations. Just because a dog is TRAINED for assistance work doesn't mean they won't show proper aggression when a threat arises, just like a good herding dog will show protection when the flock is threatened. It's there with a dog with good nerve. There used to be Red Cross dogs in War, think about the traits it takes to be successful at that. Certainly aggression isn't primary but NERVE certainly is important.

How can choosing dogs ONLY for working ability result in poor nerve? Most serious competition dogs are kenneled, and don't have to intereact with a family on a regular basis. (Yes, I KNOW lots of you keep your competition dogs in the house, and take them everywhere with you. Good for you!)
They don't HAVE to have the type of solid, stable temperament and nerve that's required to deal with screaming toddlers that steal their toys, or walking along a crowded sidewalk with noisy traffic passing by.

Also, good prey drive does not necessarily mean good nerves:
 

SchBabe: Your post made me think back to some comments made by the old timers at my old SchH club down south. They loved high drive working dogs, but the message they preached was, "If you have to choose between breeding to drives or breeding to nerves, always breed to nerves." As such, it was made clear to me as a novice that solid nerves are more important than just high drive.

Unfortunately high drive can cover up iffy nerves, to a point. When I was training with those guys I had a WGR/Dutch GSD that was all prey. High drives, not so stellar on the nerves. He would hit the sleeve hard, with a nice grip, but it was all prey. He made for a nice picture on the field, and the guys agreed that he could be titled, but I wanted a dog that was balanced and strong. In my heart I suspected that he would never have the stomach to protect me in a "real threat" situation.

Domenic: I was under the impression that schutzhund was to be a BREED WORTHY TEST. After being involved for aprox 3 or so years I have realized that this is NOT about the breed worthiness but about points (a sport). How does the GSD governing body-SV allow these breeders to breed dogs that are NERVY,all prey etc. Is this not there responsibility as well?I can only imagine how the breeds father must be turning in his grave.
 

Temperament and good nerves are taking a back seat to points and trophies. Too often, prospective sport owners are selecting puppies on the basis of prey drive ONLY. The breed founder intended this dog to be one that could herd sheep all day, or do military or police work, then relax by the fire with the family at night. The true GSD should have a well-rounded character that allows it to be used in many different areas. It was never meant to be a specialist.

I understand there are people out there who have NO BUSINESS owning any dog, especially one that requires regular exercise and a firm hand to keep it from taking over the household. But that does NOT mean the GSD is unsuited for an active pet home!
 

Another great post by Gustav:  http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/bulletins.read?mnr=153334&pagen=5

(I was not able to get the editor to cut-and-paste this time.) But I think it is very significant that military dogs were fostered with FAMILIES until old enough for real training, then were able to go on and become excellent working dogs.

Bhaugh:

It happens.   Remember a few years ago (ok; more than a few) when the TV show Fraser, had a Jack Russell Terrier???  Folks went out and bought a bunch of them without considering its temperament or anything else related to how neatly (or not) it would mesh with their lifestyle...  A lot of JRT rescues owe their existence to that show.  A scary thought, a friend told me recently that there is a current series where they just injected a highly trained mali into the cast... 

GSD's are tremendously adaptable, but ideally, they need a modicum of exercise, both physical and mental to remain healthy.

I live in the midwest, and shepherds are rehomed quickly when they are offered up at pounds/craigslist.  Im surprised to see that in AZ pounds will actually not accept shepherds!  Around here, the pounds are all full of pitbulls, maybe one in three is something else.  Any sort of small breed is snagged up quickly too.

LadyHaze, I actually have to echo back to you "where do I even start" in listing the problems you are headed given your current level of knowledge about our breed. Just from your three posts this is the info I gleaned.
Because of the pressures of young children new husband and new job you had to resort to free feeding your dogs because you could not be relied on to make sure they were fed. Good god lady what will you do with a litter of pups that have to be watched and  bedding cleaned several times a day and when they are being weaned fed 4 or more times a day. Not to mention the time you need to spend on stimulating them, imprinting them, exposing them to a variety of people, surfaces, animals and things.
Because of free feeding you can not accurately state how much food your male is getting - a dog that you a worried is much too thin. Not only that you had not had him checked for EPI which is the #1 problem in GSD for dogs who are unable to maintain a correct weight. You seemed not to know that. If that is the case that you do not know such a common GSD piece of information what else do you not yet know and how will you be able to answer your puppy buyers questions?
You were going to buy a young dog of strong working lines to start fresh. Once again however you did not know the answer to a common GSD question - what color will my puppy be> So how will you answer your puppy buyers? Also just for your information this puppy did NOT come from strong working lines. In fact the breeder only supplies about 2 generations on the bitch line so there is no reliable way to know what the heck is back there - tho being at this game for 50 years I have a pretty good idea. You were also buying a puppy whose pedigree showed an appalling lack of hip clearances. Both these things suggest to me you do not yet know your way around GSD pedigrees and that you are unable to correctly identify what part of the GSD world the dog comes from and what the common health problems are and the desire of the public for health clearances.

Finally and to me the most damning piece of information was when you refered to your previous breeding endeavors you added the justification that you only had one breeding pair. Good breeders do NOT have breeding pairs. A good breeder understands that a stud fee is the cheapest thing in the world. For the cost of a stud fee (roughly = to 1/2 the cost of a pup to the full cost of a pup depending on the sires qualifications and achievements.) you get to pick a dog that is right for your bitch not just one that is handy. You also gain information with each breeding you make to different stud dogs about what your bitch does and does not produce and what is in your pedigree/genes that you did not know about. Breeding is or should be about improving the breed not just making pups with two dogs that are at hand.

For how I started to learn about the breed please see my two posts on this previous thread- http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/bulletins.read?mnr=6308&pagen=4 I would suggest reading the whole thread because there is much good information in it to answer your questions plus a number of great links - take the time to follow them and read them. Most of all take the advice to STOP LISTEN and LEARN before you contemplate breeding. On p2 of the thread VKFGSD made a challenge to Clara about how she could learn about the breed and her dogs and still have time left over to breed - I believe he/she would make the same challenge and offer to help to you if you have the guts to do it.
Finally if you only read one link, make it this one and especially highlight the first paragraph and ask yourself if you have the capability to do that - if not you need to rethink http://showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/k9journal/breeder'sprivilege.html
I'm sure by now you have lumped me with Keith as being mean. We are not. We are very passionate about this breed. The first job of ANY breeder is to be a steward (someone who looks after something and protects it) of the breed, You seem to truly love your GSDs. I hope you will stick around and learn and listen and come to understand what a privilege and responsibility it is to be a steward of the breed.

amen @ladthaze

??? should ppl not have babies just because their are many that need to be adopted???
Many may not agree, but if i have the choice i dont want a used car, a used house, a used baby, or a used dog. ppl jumped all over me when i came to learn as well, then they tell me im a trol cause after hearing much "sit ur ass down child" i leave the thread............ima breed my dog in 2.5-4 years (provided she is health enough) she may not make the next sv champion pups. but so what, i love my wife and we have a baby (we don t genetically test ourselves to make sure the baby will be the next jordan, or bill gates)..........what noone asked me (and i didnt shair because its noones biz) is that my wife cant have kids so, where gonna have a family of 3, my TOSKA, whateva male we find for her, and their baby.........i am american, and NOONE (very small percent do)in america does anything for reasons other than money. ppl preach so mightier than though in here, yet i bet they have 4 extra bedrooms in their homes, 745 bmw's, and drive past homeless hungry ppl everyday........anyway. im done rantin.............hope yall ppl feel good, yall have ran another person of (just cause they dont think the exact same way that u do)........IM OUT LIKE BELL BOTTOMS

no gsd should be breed unless it is CHAMP this CHAMP that. kinda ironic, i know their german, but that sounds pretty close to what hitler tryed to do.("German=Supreme race, kill the rest, so they cant breed, and the world will eventually b 1 big germany")