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by Gustav on 17 November 2012 - 13:11
No Hundmutter, it's about exclusion and the reasons for such.....some posters were trying to Tie in working with the subject matter, because MAYBE the effect on the dog working should be a consideration in evaluating the pros and cons of cow hocks. My point is the really obsessive people are usually motivated by cosmetic concerns and people that are involved with this breed from a working perspective are not going to place this importance on it unless it adversely affects the dogs health or work.
by Hundmutter on 17 November 2012 - 13:11
Thats all I hoped you meant LOL
by aaykay on 18 November 2012 - 08:11
Quotes from Capt.Von Stephanitz, the breed-founder, on what he was looking for from his breed (contrast that with what the breed is now, under the hands of the knaves from the show-world):
"Utility is the true criterion of beauty."
"The breeding of Shepherd dogs must be the breeding of working dogs,
this must always be the aim or we shall cease to produce working dogs."
"Take this trouble for me; Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog,
for I have struggled all my life long for that aim."
"The most striking feature of the correctly bred German Shepherd are firmness of nerves, attentiveness, unshockability, tractability, watchfulness, reliability and incorruptibility together with courage, fighting tenacity, and hardness."
"We cannot tell from the exterior what value a dog has for breeding purposes, either from his expression, his body-build, or from his achievements."
"Utility is the true criterion of beauty."
"The breeding of Shepherd dogs must be the breeding of working dogs,
this must always be the aim or we shall cease to produce working dogs."
"Take this trouble for me; Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog,
for I have struggled all my life long for that aim."
"The most striking feature of the correctly bred German Shepherd are firmness of nerves, attentiveness, unshockability, tractability, watchfulness, reliability and incorruptibility together with courage, fighting tenacity, and hardness."
"We cannot tell from the exterior what value a dog has for breeding purposes, either from his expression, his body-build, or from his achievements."
by aaykay on 18 November 2012 - 09:11
The above quotes were simply to point out what the breed-founder had in mind and what the breed has degenerated into, under the hands of the "conformation" breeders.
The GSD is being talked about in the past-tense when it comes to working versatility nowadays (the relatively few working line GSDs are not populous enough to make a serious dent in this image/situation), while the showline crowd drives the working abilities of the breed into its grave, as they stand on the sidelines and applaud at how well the show-dog is prancing around a "ring" with its "correct stance" (while of course ignoring its utter worthlessness in any venue that requires working ability and (lack of) sheer versatility that the GSD is traditionally known for).
A breed that was once the go-to breed for its wide range of applicability and sheer versatility to be able to function as seeing-eye dogs, therapy dogs, military/police dogs, explosives detection dogs, drug interception etc is now not in the reckoning at all, as a working breed of choice. Hopefully, the oxygen that keeps the show-crowd sustained, which is really the money that pours in to keep this thing going, would be slowly cut out, so that the breed can come back to being a utility breed and not be worthless "ring prancers".
The GSD is being talked about in the past-tense when it comes to working versatility nowadays (the relatively few working line GSDs are not populous enough to make a serious dent in this image/situation), while the showline crowd drives the working abilities of the breed into its grave, as they stand on the sidelines and applaud at how well the show-dog is prancing around a "ring" with its "correct stance" (while of course ignoring its utter worthlessness in any venue that requires working ability and (lack of) sheer versatility that the GSD is traditionally known for).
A breed that was once the go-to breed for its wide range of applicability and sheer versatility to be able to function as seeing-eye dogs, therapy dogs, military/police dogs, explosives detection dogs, drug interception etc is now not in the reckoning at all, as a working breed of choice. Hopefully, the oxygen that keeps the show-crowd sustained, which is really the money that pours in to keep this thing going, would be slowly cut out, so that the breed can come back to being a utility breed and not be worthless "ring prancers".
by Hundmutter on 18 November 2012 - 10:11
Clearly Aaykay, [whatever the rights and wrongs of what working ability is or
is not still in GSDs] you are referring to the USA / AKC Show scene, rather
than anywhere else. The idea of dogs 'prancing' around the ring in Germany
or England leaves me helpless with laughter.
is not still in GSDs] you are referring to the USA / AKC Show scene, rather
than anywhere else. The idea of dogs 'prancing' around the ring in Germany
or England leaves me helpless with laughter.
by Gustav on 18 November 2012 - 11:11
In all fairness, the dogs of the BKC are much closer cousins to AKC than to Germany , in type and function
.
.by aaykay on 18 November 2012 - 14:11
Hundmutter:The idea of dogs 'prancing' around the ring in Germany or England leaves me helpless with laughter
You may be helpless with laughter but the fact of the matter is, showlines, whether they be in Germany (where the tests done are definitely not checking merely for movement in a ring and are far better than those done by the AKC) or elsewhere, have deteriorated beyond the point where even the German police are moving away from using GSDs for police work and are shifting to using the Belgian Malinois.....just think of the political uncorrectness of such a move, which of course is being done because it is no longer capable of being brushed under the carpet. and not enough Working-line GSDs to take up the slack.
Dogs (even in Germany, the home of the SV) are awarded ratings that they simply don't deserve (the "wink and nod" phenomenon) and then fail when called to the mat to perform.
Read the below article and reflect a bit on the performance of exclusively KKL1 classed dogs with "TSB pronounced" rating received during their breed-survey, belonging to showlines, and their performance during the courage test.
http://www.tiekerhook.com/index.php/news/103-after-us-the-great-flood.html
I think instead of brushing the inadequacies under the carpet and pretend that the emperor still has his clothes on, maybe it is time we took a good hard look at where we are and do some hard culling of the showline breed-stock for the betterment of the breed (inspite of the huge money interests that will be threatened if such a move were to happen)....and move away from the "perfect stance" and such fripperies onto much more difficult things like hardness, workability, bedrock solid nerves and temperament. In the long run, the breed will benefit and so will the owners and everyone else involved.
by vonissk on 18 November 2012 - 15:11
Good Morning Everyone. Hundmutter I share your laughs as I've not seen any prancing yet. BTW the dog I went to see at the GSDCA National Speciality has titles in OB, Agility, Herding and Tracking plus all health testing so if he wanted to spend his "day off" prancing around a ring it was well deserved. And Aaykay before you flame me for that, give me a minute cause I'm just getting started.
Now this is just my 2 cents worth for a Sunday morning. There are always going to be people who are not going to breed for the betterment of the breed but only for the almighty dollar bill--we have to accept that. There are going to be others who only care about how many blue ribbons are on their wall. Others for podium dogs--how many times can I make ScH 3 with this dog, FH2, Mondio, IPO 3 etc. Then there are the serious people who ARE interested not only in the betterment of the breed today but the future of our breed. One can sit and bitch and whine about the AKC and the KC and the SV's midnight trials and allowing the Martin brothers to take over with the cookie cutters and that's all well and fine. But when it's all said and done and the beer steins have been washed and dried for another day what are YOU as an individual doing to preserve the breed? IMO this is what seperates the men from the boys. Sure have your day out but when you get home your responsibility to the breed is to make a goal for where you are going and what you want to accomplish and DO IT. Don't worry about what Joe Blow down the road is doing. How does that affect you personally anyway? Some are busy cussing the AKC--sure I have feelings about the AKC--but I use them as a registering body and I expect nothing more from them. One can say well they need to make the breeders do this and that. All that is going to result in is the BYB and puppy mills either forming their own registrations that cater to such or going to the ones that already do. The ONLY reason I give a damn about what Joe Blow is doing is if he is producing dogs with shitty temperaments and even worse conformation and health problems, I want to know what lines he is using so I can make sure to stay way away from them. Other than that when the day is done, I can only control what is going on on my 1/2 acre of the world.
I have a goal--to produce dogs with the correct conformation that can work. I call it the Golden Middle--some laugh at me, some say I am into it for the dollar bill and on and on. My answer has always been 10 years down the road when correct dogs are getting even more scarce, I will still have good dogs that are beautiful and versitile and can work. So the bottom line is let's get off our duffs here and quit blaming this one and that one and concentrate on what one as an individual can do to better and preserve the greatest breed in the world.
And inreply to what this thread was originally named, I have said it before and I will say it again. I don't like cowhocks. I feel they are a fault and not only do they take away from a dog's beauty, I feel they take away from it's functionality. JMO of course.
Now this is just my 2 cents worth for a Sunday morning. There are always going to be people who are not going to breed for the betterment of the breed but only for the almighty dollar bill--we have to accept that. There are going to be others who only care about how many blue ribbons are on their wall. Others for podium dogs--how many times can I make ScH 3 with this dog, FH2, Mondio, IPO 3 etc. Then there are the serious people who ARE interested not only in the betterment of the breed today but the future of our breed. One can sit and bitch and whine about the AKC and the KC and the SV's midnight trials and allowing the Martin brothers to take over with the cookie cutters and that's all well and fine. But when it's all said and done and the beer steins have been washed and dried for another day what are YOU as an individual doing to preserve the breed? IMO this is what seperates the men from the boys. Sure have your day out but when you get home your responsibility to the breed is to make a goal for where you are going and what you want to accomplish and DO IT. Don't worry about what Joe Blow down the road is doing. How does that affect you personally anyway? Some are busy cussing the AKC--sure I have feelings about the AKC--but I use them as a registering body and I expect nothing more from them. One can say well they need to make the breeders do this and that. All that is going to result in is the BYB and puppy mills either forming their own registrations that cater to such or going to the ones that already do. The ONLY reason I give a damn about what Joe Blow is doing is if he is producing dogs with shitty temperaments and even worse conformation and health problems, I want to know what lines he is using so I can make sure to stay way away from them. Other than that when the day is done, I can only control what is going on on my 1/2 acre of the world.
I have a goal--to produce dogs with the correct conformation that can work. I call it the Golden Middle--some laugh at me, some say I am into it for the dollar bill and on and on. My answer has always been 10 years down the road when correct dogs are getting even more scarce, I will still have good dogs that are beautiful and versitile and can work. So the bottom line is let's get off our duffs here and quit blaming this one and that one and concentrate on what one as an individual can do to better and preserve the greatest breed in the world.
And inreply to what this thread was originally named, I have said it before and I will say it again. I don't like cowhocks. I feel they are a fault and not only do they take away from a dog's beauty, I feel they take away from it's functionality. JMO of course.
by Hundmutter on 18 November 2012 - 16:11
Gustav, do you really mean ALL our British GSDs, or are you
thinking about those that you might have seen in the glossy mag-
azines as Best In Show winners ? Don't forget we have two basic
types over here, the Alsatians that used to be in the ascendency but
aren't any more, and the International/Germanic, now about 3/4
of our 'showdogs'.
Guess what ? We also have working lines here, I know of someone
for instance who has a lot of Tierkehook lines and imports, since
Aaykaay raised that link; I guarantee more British showdogs are
closer to them in structure, temperament and ability than are any of
the old-style Alsatians, but I can't be responsible for what the world
'sees'.
The modern UK Showlines are mostly German ancestry within the
last 3 or 4 generations or less; WUSV Regional Shows and GSD
Breed Club - run Shows are nothing like Crufts or other KC all-
breed Championship Shows. We hold Surveys; we 'gait' our dogs
far more than any Shows in the USA as far as I can gather; more akin
to videos you may have seen of the BSV or at least Landesgruppen
shows in Germany. We have arguments about them being allowed to
pull the handlers around the ring too hard which makes them 'dig
in' and 'run downhill'; ... they DO NOT 'PRANCE'.
If these dogs are not as hard or driven as those of the specialised
purpose-bred Working Lines - the same devide as with Germany -
they are still not just 'mannequins' a la AKC. Rant over LOL.
I should add: OK its not universal, but far more 'showdogs' these
days also do equivalent of BH AD SchH - or other sorts of sportwork -
in their 'other' lives than ever the UK Alsatians did. So while what
Gustav says is true of some of our dogs, (of BOTH Show types), it is by
no means the whole picture.
thinking about those that you might have seen in the glossy mag-
azines as Best In Show winners ? Don't forget we have two basic
types over here, the Alsatians that used to be in the ascendency but
aren't any more, and the International/Germanic, now about 3/4
of our 'showdogs'.
Guess what ? We also have working lines here, I know of someone
for instance who has a lot of Tierkehook lines and imports, since
Aaykaay raised that link; I guarantee more British showdogs are
closer to them in structure, temperament and ability than are any of
the old-style Alsatians, but I can't be responsible for what the world
'sees'.
The modern UK Showlines are mostly German ancestry within the
last 3 or 4 generations or less; WUSV Regional Shows and GSD
Breed Club - run Shows are nothing like Crufts or other KC all-
breed Championship Shows. We hold Surveys; we 'gait' our dogs
far more than any Shows in the USA as far as I can gather; more akin
to videos you may have seen of the BSV or at least Landesgruppen
shows in Germany. We have arguments about them being allowed to
pull the handlers around the ring too hard which makes them 'dig
in' and 'run downhill'; ... they DO NOT 'PRANCE'.
If these dogs are not as hard or driven as those of the specialised
purpose-bred Working Lines - the same devide as with Germany -
they are still not just 'mannequins' a la AKC. Rant over LOL.
I should add: OK its not universal, but far more 'showdogs' these
days also do equivalent of BH AD SchH - or other sorts of sportwork -
in their 'other' lives than ever the UK Alsatians did. So while what
Gustav says is true of some of our dogs, (of BOTH Show types), it is by
no means the whole picture.
by Red Sable on 18 November 2012 - 17:11
I don't consider myself obsessive, however, why can't we try and breed a dog that works and that walks halfway normal?
I dont' consider the showring a place that breeds better conformation either.
A dog that can truly work has to have better than fair conformation IMO.
I dont' consider the showring a place that breeds better conformation either.
A dog that can truly work has to have better than fair conformation IMO.
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