Chocolate GSDs....sigh - Page 15

Most people on here seem to think the 'boxier' heads that I think you
are describing come from the greater use of  Czech etc Working Lines
dogs.  I don't know enough about them to comment.
I used the soft ears as an additional illustration;  I didn't read it that
you meant Akitas had them  LOL
Just about every picture I've seen in books on the GSD Standard uses
'Akita-like'  as a description for (incorrect) smaller, sometimes more
forward-placed ears;  doesn't mean there is Akita mixed in there, is all.

Hundmutter/Linda

your statement:  White Swiss are recognised as a distinct breed by the FCI;  to qualify
for FCI registration etc the dog has to be 3 clear generations registered
as White Swiss Shepherds

If the above statement were to be true 3 of my 4 dogs would not be registered as White Swiss Shepherds neither would many more from other kennels around Europe etc.  The WSS only gained FCI (provisional) separate breed recognition in 2002 - It can take a number of years for some smaller scale breeders to have a full three generation pedigree of WSS's although there would be some larger kennels with more than this number.

your statement:  Many of these have also been bred for money rather than the good of the breed.

Again tarnishing MANY WSS breeders with the same brush...  What is true is.. MANY breeders of WSS are extremely conscientious about the health of their lines but as in all cases there are a few that do not and some breeding clubs abroad have been lobbied to do more about these breeders the same as you are doing with the UK KC. 

I have seen articles written by yourself that indicate favour for certain breeders of GSD's - I suppose they come under your title 'rather than the good of the breed'   

Sue Renno 

Sue please dont argue with me about the FCI's rules, the FCI makes 'em,
I don't.   Please note i said "after their recognition was finalised in 'll";   you
all had a couple of years warning while it was provisional.

The last time you and I clashed about this area of breeding, you flounced
off and failed to answer my final question:
Does Cova's pedigree contain  Amiscus,  Blinkbonny & Vondaun dogs ?

I have said before and I will repeat it again now:   Breeders of white GSDs,
breeders of blue GSDs, breeders of liver GSDs, and breeders of WSS or
Canadian White Shepherds or any other 'breed' based on the GSD need
to be extremely careful with what dogs are in the lines they are using.  I
am happy to believe they love their dogs, they are probably only making
pin money rather than a great fortune, but IT IS STILL WRONG TO
DELIBERATELY PRODUCE NON-STANDARD COLOURS IN MORE THAN
NATURALLY OCCURRING NUMBERS just because you see a market
for them.  And very many 'breeders' ARE doing that;  and not being too
careful along the way about the back-massed lines they are doing it with,
OR the huge hip-scores they are doing it with.  See Abby's posts above -
you might learn something.  Particularly about why I got cross with you
because for all your forum and website chat about using the BVA hip scheme
you had not actually started to do so, and/or  you were not publishing results.

Actually I can't think offhand of one 'article'  (post on here ? Magazine piece ?)
where I have specifically 'favoured' any one, or more, breeder(s).  Could you
guide me to those, pls ?  Or has someone shown you  A   'personal message'
from me ?   

[Well folks, I guess we have rattled their collective cage !   It may get worse from
here on ...]

Linda

How can I possibly know anything about FCI rules concerning the White Swiss Shepherd - silly me...

On other subjects I am not going to repeat myself yet again so I have placed a link of our last 'clash' as you call it below.  I did within it offer for you (the breeder police/quaified geneticist?) to come and see my dogs and their paperwork  for yourself especially as you were questioning health & temperament of the WSS.  (God knows why though!)  I do however wonder if you have actually been abroad and met any White Swiss Shepherds.  

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/forum.read?mnr=599945-scam#617100


Yes I do have the lines you mentioned way back in Cova's pedigree and her pedigree is on this Database for anyone to find.  If anyone wishes to go onto my Champdogs web pages  (the link has always been on my own website www.whiteswissshepherds.co.uk ) they can find all my dogs health scores (hips & elbows) WHICH HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THERE typed in GREEN not added afterwards like you have implied! and I can assure you that Champdogs will not allow you to place those scores on their site without having seen a copy of the BVA scores first.  (Champdog rules/regulations).  It is unfortunate that the UK KC do not recognise the White Swiss Shepherd as a breed so do not accept a copy of their hip/elbow scores and therefore do not publish them.  Any suggestions as to where you would like me to publish them Ms Swift?   As I told ypu before - more importantly all my puppy purchasers are given a copy of BVA scored documents as well as a health guarantee. 

As to your last question (sorry I should have said post not article) I did read it a long time ago.  After our last discussion I decided to try to find out what type of GSD you favoured as I did not know you and you appeared to me as a self opinionated person with a hatred of whites referring to the WSS as 'crappy GSD's that they are' this is when I found your two comments in the post (link below),  I am not mentioning names, I made assumptions (right or wrong) from those comments.  By the way why would I have seen a personal letter from you to anyone?  I do not personally know anyone in the british GSD show arena and you are of no importance to me.  I only had a mild curiosity about you after your comments/criticism about the WSS.

http://de.pedigreedatabase.com/forum.read?mnr=617166-incompetent-and-poor-judging

I agree any knowledge about health issues in breeding lines need to be shared and is important and helpful and this is one reason why I do research even using sites like this one, after all my interest is a hobby also.  I also  have opinions about different types of GSD and have a certain dislike for some types but I do not run them down on public forums! everyone to their own no matter what the breed. 

Sue Renno

You clearly don't know FCI rules terribly well or you would not have tried to
mislead me over on the White Shepherd board, when you told me to
'get over it' because the FCI had accepted WSS whether I liked it or not,
implying that that decision had been finalised two years before it actually
had been.

I said "crappy GSDs" (not crappy WHITE GSDs btw) because we were talking
on that thred about awful experiences people who had aquired [one or other
variety of] White Shepherds and got more than they bargained for in epilepsy;
fading pigment/pink noses; bad hips; bad nerves, and entropian (!!!).  I was
illustrating what Malcolm Willis and others have said about breeding with white
dogs to keep the colour going, and throwing other aspects of health / conformation
out 'with the bath water'.  I stand by that.  As folk know on here, I do not HATE
whites, I don't even hate livers - what I do hate are people who don't give a
stuff what they do to the breed, as long as they can saturate the market with
dogs that are "undesirable" according to the Breed Standard.

If you and your chums see that as a "witchhunt" too bad;  you can't have a witch
hunt without witches.

Where to put your scores ?  On your website where potential puppy purchasers
can see them and make some more informed decisions.


PS re PMs - glad you carefully said 'British', wink wink - he's already 'fessed up ...

I'm not all that familiar with how things are done in Europe when it comes to tracking the health of certain breeds (which seems to be what this thread has morphed into?) but wanted to say that in the US the White Shepherd Genetics Project has been a valuable source of information and education for those breeders who want to participate and take advantage of it. If there are WS and BBS reading this thread that aren't familiar with the WSGP this is a link to their website. www.wsgenetics.com
Don't mean to derail the thread, just thought it was important to give credit to the breeders producing Whites who care very much about the health of their dogs and future progeny.

Separate topic:  the link to the kennel you think I 'favour' publicly ...
yes I did say to the proprietor @ Videx that I would prefer he continue
attending Shows so that those of us with less breeding experience
could continue to see his dogs,  and so he could continue to take
a lead in trying to sort out bent judging.

I freely admit I have always liked their stock, too.

So what ?  I'm not posting adverts for the man or his kennel.

At least he breeds to the standard, even though I am told he has produced a
few unfortunate hips in recent times.  As to that, suggest you tune into other
debates going on at present.

whiteshepherds - of course, feel free as far as I am concerned, I don't know
how Abby will respond, its her thred.
Anyone who recognises the problems and genuinely breeds as far away from
known ancestry that carries genetic diseases as possible, rather than constantly
going back to related animals, to restock their sales brochure no matter what the
cost,  is fine by me.  I am trying to tackle a real problem here, I am not simply
indulging a fetish or pot (or witch) hunting ...

Thank you whiteshepherds - I am already a member and get regular emails  on issues and news - it is great that both breeders and owners on the site are so open with any genetic problem that has arisen with their dogs.


Linda

It takes one to know one - and it's now noted by many by your last PS re: your pm'S (noted the plural) - you obviously have plenty of them in your COVEN!! 

Sue, of course I have had more than one PM since joining this board.
[ Hasn't everybody ?]  They are all civil.

What are you doing ?  The last place anyone as 'pure' as you appear to
be should turn up is on this thred, bashing me.  Surely you should be glad
if we can get the Kennel Club to reduce your competition, by cracking
down on the type of breeders these threads are about ?  What are
you afraid of ?