Chocolate GSDs....sigh - Page 16

Linda

re: your statement:   'I said "crappy GSDs" (not crappy WHITE GSDs btw)'

and... excuse me but I do not people bash and I am not a liar!! - YOUR WORDS to Nick which I found offensive and first led me to reply to you on this forum
(copy & pasted) 
'Of course it would not 'do' to have Berger Blanc Suisse (whatever their Pigment on nose 'n' nails) shown to be the crappy white GSDs they still are, hence the reluctance to look back beyond three generations ago on the pedigree.  So they rule that you only need 3 generations to establish a new Breed'

your statement today
'You clearly don't know FCI rules terribly well or you would not have tried to
mislead me over on the White Shepherd board, when you told me to
'get over it' because the FCI had accepted WSS whether I liked it or not,
implying that that decision had been finalised two years before it actually
had been.'

???? what are you on about????  I wrote the 'get over it' comment in May 2012 the FCI gave full recognition to the WSS in Paris on 4th July 2011 -
I have never tried to mislead anyone. 

and...  for the record I may have used the word British (a butt of your joke) but I am extending that to all Nationalities.  Anyway I have finished with this bantering back & forth to no avail - this will be my 27th post on this forum since I joined 3.1/2 years ago but getting to know how you tick Linda I am certain you will have the last word as usual making it your  1,106th post in less than half that time!

Sincere apologies to Abby for diverting from her thread - no more to be said..


Sue Renno 

**Surely you should be glad if we can get the Kennel Club to reduce your competition, by cracking down on the type of breeders these threads are about ?**

Is this something that would be controlled by the Kennel Club or the breed parent club?

Whiteshepherds I am presuming you are in the UK as you say 'if WE can get the KC' Club' I am a show/hobby breeder of registered White Swiss Shepherds not white German Shepherds so I do not currently have any competition in the UK.  My dogs have been shown successfully under many top (some reknowned) International Judges in Europe and deemed to be a good example of the breed and.suitable for breeding.  Yes it is a good thing that the KC is lobbied to stop any breeding from unhealthy lines, If any body of people can stop the progeny registration from these dogs they can, the same problem happens in other countries also (as you can tell from other threds on this PDB) breeding clubs are lobbied which I said earlier. Living in Wales for 24 years (although I am Engish and originate from Twickenham in Middlesex) has been an eye opener for me wih the breeding of dogs and one of the many reasons I feel passionately about breeding dogs correctly for health and temperement.  (Although the problem is a National one but unfortunately Wales has the worst reputation).  I amnot perfect byany means but when you take such care with breeding your dogs and trying to meet THEIR WSS FCI breed standard and spending so much time and effort trying to do it to the best of your ability, having the responsibility of raising your pups well so they integrate well into their new homes and their new families can enjoy a healthy, friendly puppy that will live for many years and then someone starts running your breed down, a breed that has only just been introduced into the UK, a breed they probably have never met, as being 'a crappy white GSD' yes I take personal offence.  I am not in this statement denying the genetics of WSS but their conformation & colour/pigment is different to many of the white GSD's seen in the UK, am I wrong in offering another in SOME cases healthier, option to families? I would like the UK KC to recognise the WSS as a separate breed but they too have told me now on a few occasions that as far as they are concerned the WSS is a white GSD and that any one who contacts them with an import wanting to be registered with them will be offered either 1) to re register it as a GSD 2) place on the working register as a cross breed They even offer an Authority to Compete for WSS to compete in the UK show ring as a GSD!  To them it does not matter that FCI recognises them in so many countries as a separate breed - their reciprocal agreement obviously does not count in this matter as FCI has forbidden any cross breeding of WSS & GSD (seems the UK who must be a contract partner with a reciprical agreement thinks differently).  FCI circular wording below: We remind all FCI member organisations and contract partners that they have to comply with the following : 1. White Swiss Shepherd Dogs (347) CANNOT be mated with white German Shepherd Dogs (GSD, standard 166) since they are two distinct breeds with different breed standards. Competition?  I would like to see more lines of WSS come into the UK the more lines/more dogs the more chance there is of meeting the UK KC's  requirements/criteria for breed recognition.  and.. to finally see them in the UK show ring! By the way..... I had quite a few enquiries whilst I was in the UK asking to use my dogs for stud to  GSD's - 'being in it just for the money' what do you think I said... I hope this explains where I am coming from Whiteshepherd Sue

I am unable to comment on the debate regarding the WSS, since I haven’t been involved in it, and so must leave it to those that have.

I would like to reply to Blackfurbabe though. I sensed right, you are a breeder for colour. Care to share your affix? (Was it your black dog that was bred to Galaxy but didn't produce any livers?) I said earlier on and it has been reflected in your posts that you know little about GSDs and yet – you are a breeder.  Vonissk said ‘you have no clue’. She was correct.  You see these health issues as a bunch of letters that ‘nobody wants to produce’ yet you have little or no understanding of why breeding FOR these colours increases the probability of producing them - none.   You may like more colour in your lives,  I will refer back to these ‘chocolate’ puppies. I am sure the unsuspecting puppy buyers will think an unusual colour will be ‘fun’ until their poor dog is crippled. THAT is what those ‘letters’ can mean.  Maybe you can tell them just to ‘get over it’.   Dogs aren’t handbags. If you want some colour in your life go get some pink shoes and a handbag.  That way you wont be messing  up the genes of a living breathing puppy that someone hopes to love and treasure as their companion for the next 10 - 14 years by causing severe HD or epilepsy (those letters) just because you like a bit of colour.  

Do you think the breeder I am referring to is ‘breeding away from problems’ by using a bitch with a 74 hip score? REALLY???  Please enlighten me as to how you think that works......
If *breeders* breeding for colour are as ill informed as you are (and that does seem to be a common feature) they don’t even know what and where the problems are, and what is more likely, are too concerned about colour and money to even bother to find out, or maybe they just don't care.

This is not a witch hunt though when anyone comes under any scrutiny they do love to bandy the phrase around – this is exposing bad breeding practices and frankly you are just too unintelligent to see it.  Your inexperience shows when you suggest that the KC would contact people with ‘suspect’ lines.  Have you not understood much of what has been said in this thread? Please do go away and educate yourself for heavens sake. I cannot imagine the damage that you can cause the breed by breeding when your knowledge is so frighteningly limited about anything dog related let alone GSD related.

I don’t know this woman, I do know that she is not health testing her dogs, is trying to make a buck from non standard colours at any cost,  breeding from unhealthy dogs. I don’t dislike livers, blues or whites. BUT anyone who has a grasp of the lines that are used and the restricted breeding practices you need to employ to produce off colours – rather than letting them occur naturally will understand that it is a slippery slope. Is that vile gossip?  Everything that I have stated is proven by Kennel Club records – do please illustrate what you think I have said that is ‘gossip’. Refer to KC health records if you even know how, refer to the BRS (if you know what that is) or can be bothered to look.

The top GSD breeders in the world show their full pedigrees – they don’t seem to have a problem with it, and it is obvious why, they use good lines and health tested dogs - why do coloured breeders have a problem?, well it's a bit of a no brainer isn't it?  
 
While you are having your hot chocolate I suggest you go online and order Malcolm Willis’ book on the history of the German Shepherd dog and read it from cover to cover. Then read it again. Then do some full research about the breed and try and learn something before you ever breed another dog. Then find yourself a mentor that isn't just trying to fill a niche market with pretty colours, but wants to breed GSDs with health and temperament in mind and use the very best lines available, not just those that can produce a recessive colour. Please.

Sereno I was quoting someone else (badly I guess, lol) I'm in the US. I was trying to see how similar the KC was the to AKC when it comes to handling problems in a breed.

Whiteshepherds - sadly, as we have found out from others on the 
board, the UK KC is just like the AKC  -  it has done sweet fanny
adams about this and similar problems.  THAT [rather than just
indulging my own prejudices, or playing at witchfinder general]
is why I got involved in this issue.

Re the "parent breed club":   we don't have one.  There are more
GSD organisations than you can shake a stick at, but THREE 
major Clubs plus a Breed Council  (reps from the clubs).  ONE
of three Clubs won't be in the Breed Council (cos they have the 'right'
sort of dog); of the other TWO, one is, one isn't ('this week') on BC,
they are BOTH   WUSV  members but poles apart and spend a lot of time
arguing with each other about other matters than health.
The BREED COUNCIL is the only body really interested in the
Epilepsy issue, and the main point for records and research.
But they have had about as much luck with the Kennel Club as a
fly in the air.  We also have a Breed Information Service, Chris
Hasell and her pedigree information links the 2 bodies, they get
medical research done and information disseminated, but again
with only marginal help from the KC. 

Now do you understand why the DIY approach ?

Thanks Hundmutter. It looks like problems in breeding, health, clubs and registries are universal. (small comfort)



 

Am going to see if I can import some text from my own files: 

NNNOOOO, sorry, I can't get my head round this process - need
more practice.   I'll need to type it in instead I think ...

Not to derail the thred but this is somewhat relevant and I promised it to Sereno
but never put it up on the White Shepherd / Scam post:

Just some info about White GSDs, the British part of the foundation for WSS,
and its about numbers production ie quantity not quality, not finger-pointing
about any diseased or carrier lines *;  to illustrate the extent of breeding outside
the Standard for one officially  "undesirable" colour.

Breed   Record   Supplement   Summer Quarter 1995   (=  3 months, April - June):

Affix / Kennel                              Litters registered                          Number of pups

Amiscus                                       five                                                   23 white [out of 31]

No affix, private breeder, using Amiscus stud:   1                          10 white puppies

Vondaun         12 dogs transferred to new owners, from litters previous Qtr, of which 11 white.
No new Vondaun litters this qtr, but ...
No affix, private breeder, using Vondaun stud: (2)  1   another 10 white puppies
                                                                                           1         "         5  white puppies
Ryewillow   all using same Vondaun stud          6                         20 white [out of 30]

plus      21  individual litters by assorted breeders:  a further     132 white puppies.

NB not counting odd one or two further white dogs born into coloured litters (of which, many) or
any other 'undesirable'/'pet' colours e.g. blue, liver.