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by Hundmutter on 21 November 2012 - 22:11
Yes, people, that is over 200 pups inside a three month period.
In a little country like the UK.
They could not be shown then (whites and longcoats society
had I think started, but didn't have a show network of any sort).
Most of them did not end up in working homes.
And this takes no account of dogs bred but NOT registered;
or the eventual offspring of such dogs and what they produced.
Still think it was all done with QUALITY AND HEALTH in mind,
Sue ?
In a little country like the UK.
They could not be shown then (whites and longcoats society
had I think started, but didn't have a show network of any sort).
Most of them did not end up in working homes.
And this takes no account of dogs bred but NOT registered;
or the eventual offspring of such dogs and what they produced.
Still think it was all done with QUALITY AND HEALTH in mind,
Sue ?
by blackfurbabe on 23 November 2012 - 22:11
Seeing as my last post did not disappear, i will take the oppotunity to reply to Abby Normal, firstly thankyou i have not laughed liked that since yesterday.
First you dont like the off colours,then you critisize a mating done not to produce them,excuse me, but i thought you were saying i am the unintelligent one.
Secondly just because someone asks questions or has doubts on the posters validity or does not believe gossipers does not mean they know nothing,it merely means they might want someone elses point of view.
Thirdly when your advise is wanted on a mating you will be asked-but dont hold your breathe too long.
by Hundmutter on 24 November 2012 - 02:11
Blackfurbabe - how come you think inbreeding on a showline
might give you an added risk, but not inbreeding on fancy colours
lines ???
might give you an added risk, but not inbreeding on fancy colours
lines ???
by whiteshepherds on 24 November 2012 - 06:11
Sereno wrote: >>> I am not in this statement denying the genetics of WSS but their conformation & colour/pigment is different to many of the white GSD's seen in the UK, am I wrong in offering another in SOME cases healthier, option to families?>>>
I look at it this way. People intentionally breeding white coated GSD's are deliberately breeding against the standard. This means there will always be questions, assumptions made, and yes, some insults from GSD owners and breeders . It comes with the territory and is no different than what should happen when someone intentionally breeds GSD's with weak nerves, bad conformation, a genetic history of bad hips, epilepsy etc.
On the other hand, people breeding Berger Blanc Suisse (White Shepherds, White Swiss Shepherds) have no impact on the GSD breed and are breeding to a different FCI standard. People who breed them don't owe the GSD community explanations or apologies. The group these breeders do have to answer to is the WSS community. We're no different, we don't want genetic problems in our dogs either. Breeders who produce good healthy WSS have nothing to defend. Those who don't will be found out, it's that simple.
People like Abby Normal and Hundmutter aren't exclusive to the GSD breed. All breeds have their watchdogs (no pun intended) and without them things could be a lot worse. It's threads like this that bring awareness to dog buyers and puts breeders on notice, they can only fool the public for so long. Works for me.
I look at it this way. People intentionally breeding white coated GSD's are deliberately breeding against the standard. This means there will always be questions, assumptions made, and yes, some insults from GSD owners and breeders . It comes with the territory and is no different than what should happen when someone intentionally breeds GSD's with weak nerves, bad conformation, a genetic history of bad hips, epilepsy etc.
On the other hand, people breeding Berger Blanc Suisse (White Shepherds, White Swiss Shepherds) have no impact on the GSD breed and are breeding to a different FCI standard. People who breed them don't owe the GSD community explanations or apologies. The group these breeders do have to answer to is the WSS community. We're no different, we don't want genetic problems in our dogs either. Breeders who produce good healthy WSS have nothing to defend. Those who don't will be found out, it's that simple.
People like Abby Normal and Hundmutter aren't exclusive to the GSD breed. All breeds have their watchdogs (no pun intended) and without them things could be a lot worse. It's threads like this that bring awareness to dog buyers and puts breeders on notice, they can only fool the public for so long. Works for me.
by Hundmutter on 24 November 2012 - 07:11
Whiteshepherds - thanx - I think !
Look: irrespective of Epilepsy as such, my beef about Whites, whether white GSDs,
or FCI recognised WSS/BBS (or any other kind of White Shepherd, recognised by
their own or other countries or not) is this:
White GSDs in England were fine, left to the natural reproductive, genotypic and
phenotypic 'white' dogs. If they were from well-bred [GSD] lines, they were usually
nicely constructed healthy well-pigmented temperamentally sound dogs, whichever
'side' of the breed they came out of. If they were bred by amateurs, puppyfarmers and
BYBers, they were often ghastly in some way, or unsound in others. Just like their
black & gold or sable brethren.
When folk started to realise the white ones not only still 'sold' to Jo Public, but could
be said to be 'rare' and therefore sold even more readily, the 'industry' got started.
Same in Germany - but less well off than the Brits, our Kennel Club registers them;
German breeders were outside the SV system, but there were still some who bred
white dog to white-carrying bitches &c to get whole litters of whites, rather than e.g.
2 in 8. And then inbred the progeny to keep 'em coming. That isn't one or two people
with the idea to develop a distinct and separate breed, with all the hard work that entails.
That is people realising they have a 'product' to sell, with less overheads - no Show
entries or gas to pay for, for a start. Same in America. Same everywhere.
All roads eventually leading back to Germany and German German Shepherd Dogs.
On the White Shepherd Forum, there were a lot of people complaining about what was
wrong with white dogs they had. They were like a lot of ppl on this forum: they had 'bought
blind', no idea what to ask or look out for, bought without any basic research, bought off
breeders prepared to take the money then offer no after-help. So on a few posts I tried
to educate them; expressed surprise that they were surprised, etc. Maybe some of the
remarks I made were too blunt, but I was overall trying to be helpful - it always partly
depends on the response from the OP. And you cannot undo a dog already purchased.
Sue interjected herself into the debate, ostensibly in defence of my 'nasty' remark to another
poster, assuming I was actually aiming at herself in some oblique way and eventually making
it clear it was she who had produced and sold the first officially BBS litter on British soil (albeit
unrecognised by UK's KC). Just as she cannot justify the methods her stock originates from,
so other producers of whites of whatever category cannot justify it either. Sorry; historical
fact. Now not everybody behind every white dog is as 'bad' as everybody else, and at the
Generation One level - i.e. their own dogs in their own homes - i am sure at least some of
them are kind, efficient, careful, non-commercialist, yadayadayada. But it IS a tower built on
sand.
Look: irrespective of Epilepsy as such, my beef about Whites, whether white GSDs,
or FCI recognised WSS/BBS (or any other kind of White Shepherd, recognised by
their own or other countries or not) is this:
White GSDs in England were fine, left to the natural reproductive, genotypic and
phenotypic 'white' dogs. If they were from well-bred [GSD] lines, they were usually
nicely constructed healthy well-pigmented temperamentally sound dogs, whichever
'side' of the breed they came out of. If they were bred by amateurs, puppyfarmers and
BYBers, they were often ghastly in some way, or unsound in others. Just like their
black & gold or sable brethren.
When folk started to realise the white ones not only still 'sold' to Jo Public, but could
be said to be 'rare' and therefore sold even more readily, the 'industry' got started.
Same in Germany - but less well off than the Brits, our Kennel Club registers them;
German breeders were outside the SV system, but there were still some who bred
white dog to white-carrying bitches &c to get whole litters of whites, rather than e.g.
2 in 8. And then inbred the progeny to keep 'em coming. That isn't one or two people
with the idea to develop a distinct and separate breed, with all the hard work that entails.
That is people realising they have a 'product' to sell, with less overheads - no Show
entries or gas to pay for, for a start. Same in America. Same everywhere.
All roads eventually leading back to Germany and German German Shepherd Dogs.
On the White Shepherd Forum, there were a lot of people complaining about what was
wrong with white dogs they had. They were like a lot of ppl on this forum: they had 'bought
blind', no idea what to ask or look out for, bought without any basic research, bought off
breeders prepared to take the money then offer no after-help. So on a few posts I tried
to educate them; expressed surprise that they were surprised, etc. Maybe some of the
remarks I made were too blunt, but I was overall trying to be helpful - it always partly
depends on the response from the OP. And you cannot undo a dog already purchased.
Sue interjected herself into the debate, ostensibly in defence of my 'nasty' remark to another
poster, assuming I was actually aiming at herself in some oblique way and eventually making
it clear it was she who had produced and sold the first officially BBS litter on British soil (albeit
unrecognised by UK's KC). Just as she cannot justify the methods her stock originates from,
so other producers of whites of whatever category cannot justify it either. Sorry; historical
fact. Now not everybody behind every white dog is as 'bad' as everybody else, and at the
Generation One level - i.e. their own dogs in their own homes - i am sure at least some of
them are kind, efficient, careful, non-commercialist, yadayadayada. But it IS a tower built on
sand.
by vomeisenhaus on 24 November 2012 - 11:11
This thread is 9 pages. SMH. Lol
by Hundmutter on 24 November 2012 - 11:11
Sorry Vommeisenhaus, a new one on me: SMH ??
by Sereno on 24 November 2012 - 13:11
whiteshepherds
Thank you, it is very true what you say including that breeders of WSS 'don't owe the GSD community explanations or apologies'
Line breeding has been a major issue with the healthy breeding of dogs and I myself enjoy doing research and I find this database extremely useful to trace back lines for my own use. I have used IMO a good software package for many years now compiling a large database of my own of differing lines (first used for Great Danes which I gave up showing because of major health problems in the breed) this package also enables me to calculate the inbreeding coefficient of offspring from a test mating between any two dogs. I am also able to calculate for an individual dog and ALL mine are below the recommended average percentage for a GSD which Hundmutter states in her eyes the WSS is, three of mine being 0%
On a personal note.. I think of myself as a reasonably intelligent woman and have never written on any other forum, (so what an earth am I doing even writing another post in reply?) I am not usually confrontational or so vocal but my hobby in my older years has now become my passion and it's true I have taken Hundmutter's 'nasty' comments about the WSS to heart other than just ignoring them. After doing a lot of reading on here I should have realised before now that it is futile wasting so much energy arguing as she is always right as you can see from her past comments where she denies what she says and then proven incorrect she NEVER apologises to say she was mistaken just ignores it. If she states some people may be genuine in their breeding practices she always follows it with a sarcastic remark as showed in her last sentence 'yadayadayada' and it's obvious to me anyway that she likes to have the last word. I have always said each to their own, we are all different with different personalities, opions and interests and wondered how people could take a dislike to someone they don't know or have ever met, but now I fully understand.
Sue
Thank you, it is very true what you say including that breeders of WSS 'don't owe the GSD community explanations or apologies'
Line breeding has been a major issue with the healthy breeding of dogs and I myself enjoy doing research and I find this database extremely useful to trace back lines for my own use. I have used IMO a good software package for many years now compiling a large database of my own of differing lines (first used for Great Danes which I gave up showing because of major health problems in the breed) this package also enables me to calculate the inbreeding coefficient of offspring from a test mating between any two dogs. I am also able to calculate for an individual dog and ALL mine are below the recommended average percentage for a GSD which Hundmutter states in her eyes the WSS is, three of mine being 0%
On a personal note.. I think of myself as a reasonably intelligent woman and have never written on any other forum, (so what an earth am I doing even writing another post in reply?) I am not usually confrontational or so vocal but my hobby in my older years has now become my passion and it's true I have taken Hundmutter's 'nasty' comments about the WSS to heart other than just ignoring them. After doing a lot of reading on here I should have realised before now that it is futile wasting so much energy arguing as she is always right as you can see from her past comments where she denies what she says and then proven incorrect she NEVER apologises to say she was mistaken just ignores it. If she states some people may be genuine in their breeding practices she always follows it with a sarcastic remark as showed in her last sentence 'yadayadayada' and it's obvious to me anyway that she likes to have the last word. I have always said each to their own, we are all different with different personalities, opions and interests and wondered how people could take a dislike to someone they don't know or have ever met, but now I fully understand.
Sue
by vonissk on 24 November 2012 - 14:11
Hundmutter SMH== shaking my head. My daughter taught me..........
by Hundmutter on 24 November 2012 - 14:11
Thanks. lol.
Hey, vomE was right about the 9 pages; this thread is now in
11th place on the Hot Topics list !
That's 10 places above the thred on "People With Kennel Blindness".
L x
Hey, vomE was right about the 9 pages; this thread is now in
11th place on the Hot Topics list !
That's 10 places above the thred on "People With Kennel Blindness".
L x
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