Chocolate GSDs....sigh - Page 18

ooooooooh  how exciting that must be for you sad sad people

I am done here!

So you keep saying.

By the way, for general interest:   Nobody set out to get this thred to the
length it has;  and it might not have become so long without the sidetracking
by breeders trying to defend the indefensible.  IMHO -  SMH  now.

 Getting sidetracked on a thread can happen easily, and looking at what Abby was trying to discuss was not only her concern of what she had heard but also of what she had read, on this particular breeder's website.

  It has already been mentioned how relevant it is that information be shared by Breeder's, Registered names, Health Testing etc. and this breeder has certainly done this and provided much more, but, what I think the big concern is that she has mentioned dogs with health problems, and specifically mentioned a female from an other Breeder that produced her a litter of puppies, but this same female months later developed epilepsy and had to eventually be put to sleep due to having bad fits, her words.  This breeder has also stated on her website saying that she contacted all the pet owners, which if this is the case has to be commended,but then says that after letting the breeder know of this sad situation, she stated that this breeder told her that  four other dogs had been put to sleep due to fits, and were all related to the female that she owned, her words.

This makes for very unpleasant reading, and putting up a statement like this on a website that is Public, people will read it and have every right to question what has been written,and this is where Damage can be done, if what has been written is not backed up with some relevant information, the breeder mentioned I believe did try and contact her regarding her statements on her site,and is still waiting to hear from her.

 Putting up such strong statements on a website for all to read, should be backed up with proof of what has been written, as this information is critical,as it causes people to speculate what dogs are being disscussed, it is also unfair to the breeder mentioned if this is not accurate information and also to the people who are trying so hard to make some headway with the Kennel Club regarding health issues, in this case, Epilepsy, and to the people who have willingly shared their experience with their own dogs suffering from this condition.  Then you read of four dogs if this is true, suffering from Epilepsy and all put to sleep, who are they, what about their siblings, have any been used in breeding programs,  this is the very thing that we are all fighting against, and instead of working together with the researchers, this is working against them.
Please know I do not mean, go public and blast certain people, why not at the very least share "confidentially" the information that is needed to stop future health problems in this Breed.

Margaret

Here we go again,Hundmutter- I am so glad you are a person and not a dog,you have obviously led people down the wrong path in your posts.
You continue to loose the plot,i know you like to play bow to your audience,but really, you should behave a little better in public.
You seem to have posted rather a lot in your year and a half of being a member,you were given 2 ears and 2 eyes for a reason yet your 1 mouth seems to be your stongest ass ett.
Thanks for the "fancy" colour description,sounds much nicer than when your like refer to it as off,which is where that takes me now,off to see the fancy colours who have not been inbred and do have show lines.

1 blackfurbabe I am unaware of any limit on posting for any member
of the forum, so exactly who are you, to tell me I have made too many
posts ?

2 Answer the question that I asked you, please, about why you are
prepared to consider intense inbreeding in a showline  (Lornaville)               
may give you increased risks of problems e.g.with Epilepsy;  but
clearly so unwilling to consider the same risks in 'colours' breeding
where there is plenty of evidence of inbreeding/backmassing to lines,
that you are prepared to accuse me of leading readers "down the wrong
path" ?.


I think I've made this clear already, but I will say it again:   I am not 'having
a go' at anybody for the sake of it;  if any individuals producing coloured
dogs have clearly and openly moved well away from the back-massed
stock and are honestly avoiding breeding on other problems, like using
ridiculously high hip scores ( that have no place in EXPERT breeders plans,
let alone people who think selling 'undesirable' colours is a good idea),
then they will go on doing so, and no one will stop them.  I may personaly
feel they are out of order in terms of 'the good of the breed' - and a lot of
other ppl may agree with me - but nothing the Kennel Club is likely to be
moved to do will affect them.   Those who CANNOT honestly show this with
their breeding will be no doubt 'advised' by the KC (and who knows, may even
have some registrations refused);  but what is likely to come of this is more
advice to purchasers to research puppies properly and ask the right questions.
The only people whose sales will actually suffer are those who will not or can
not show that they ARE breeding carefully, and with healthy dogs in mind.  So
if the particular breeder you have defended, or yourself, or anyone else, really
IS in proper control of their breeding programme, and not just in it for what they
can get out of it, what are you worried about ?  Why are you posting (your so
jealously-guarded few number of posts you think it is seemly to make ) ???
 

Chocolate is merely another term for the color known as liver in American GSDs, and as braun or brown in the SV German dogs.  The liver gene changes the black pigment and black markings to brown in a liver GSD, it does not affect the ground color (red, tan, cream, or silver). Depending on what color and marking PATTERN the dog has inherited, the dog may be a liver agouti/sable, a liver and red, or a solid liver.  In the German SV Zuchtbuch, a liver is listed as braun.  For example, you may see a litter with some pups colors listed as sg (schwarz-gelbe) or black gold, and other pups in the litter will be listed as bg (braun gelbe) brown gold .Of course, since livers, blues, and whites are obvious at birth, many politicallly correct GSD breeders can easily destroy these pups at birth so their existence never becomes known. Howeever, like all recessive genes, the liver, blue, and white genes are nearly impossible to eliminate because these hidden recessives won't be revealed until two carriers of the same recessive are put together
. 
Liver and blue are both recessive to black.  They have been in existence since the beginning of the breed and nearly all of the most important foundation and pillar dogs of the breed carried liver, blue, the white recessive, or two of those recessives or even all three. These 3 genes are present in top show and working lines of GSDs all over the world, including the German show lines, German working lines, and American lines.   

Some of the most important and famous modern German show dogs, including a number of Siegers, carried the liver gene.  Although it became harder to get reliable data for blue in German dogs when the SV stopped publishing dogs rejected for blauling (blue) in the Zeitung,  most likely there are also more than a few top German dogs who carry the gene for blue because dogs such as Uran v Wildsteiger Land and at least one of his parents carried blue, and its almost impossible to find a German show pedigree that doesn't go back to Uran or one or both of his parents.  I've been told Uran got the blue gene from his dam Palme but I've never yet been able to find any data to confirm which of his parents was the source of the blue gene. 

Blanket criticism of recessives is illogical because the most commonly seen GSD coat color , the saddle pattern black and red dog, is genetically recessive to the agouti/sable pattern (agouti/sable is called grau (gray) in Germany). And the Panda gene is dominant!

There are so many more important things than color and pattern that a knowledgeable breeder must consider when making breeding decisions or when choosing a pup to keep for the next generation.  A genetically healthy, sound GSD of good structure, movement, correct temperament, trainability etc of any color or pattern, whether that color or pattern is politically correct or not, would be the best dog any day over a dog with genetic health problems, soundness issues, bad structure, faulty temperament, etc. Making breedings and selecting dogs based on color and markings alone, wthout considering genetic health, soundness, structure, temperament, etc, is a certain recipe for disaster.

Great post GSDGenetics.  The important paragraph in the context of this thread is your very last one.

Blackfurbabe
If you say the mating was intended to produce black and tans then that of course must be right, as you point out – you are in the know about this livergsds site. Nice black dog BTW. As is the liver dog chosen as the next mate – seems to have a very nice structure, love to know the pedigree. Let’s hope the health tests are good.  As CB has proved, anyone can health test a dog (or not), but then ignore the result entirely! Or, they can say they health test when they actually don’t!

When you said reply, I thought maybe you meant a genuine reply to some of the salient points mentioned such as this one.
“Do you think the breeder I am referring to is ‘breeding away from problems’ by using a bitch with a 74 hip score?

I don’t understand why you leap to the defence of these breeders other than you can see yourself travelling or already having travelled the same road, by having to make myriad compromises in pursuit of colour, in the same way that you would if you were limiting yourself to any other single trait.
If someone wants to produce liver dogs as in this case, they do not have the pick of dogs with the best structure, health, temperament and features that may complement their existing dogs. The first, second and third  requirement is colour, and very quickly you will be drawing on the same limited pool that is currently causing so many problems and those problems are increasing all the time.
Breeding for any one trait is a blind alley, though it may not seem so at first, but as you say – you won’t be seeking my advice any time soon.  I see you have said you will seek the advice of Chris Hazell now that this has become more personal for you.  Earlier on in one of your posts you said you had researched all your pedigrees, but when you research them yourself you need to know what you are looking for, and it helps to do this before you breed.  I am genuinely sorry that you have found some suspect lines in your own dog, it must be a real worry. I do hope that it will give you a different perspective on the whole issue, and that you get all your pedigrees checked, Chris is a mine of information.  
Whiteshepherd: Thank you, yes, you can see that there is no colour prejudice, simply prejudice against terrible breeding practices, wherever they occur, and I can't understand anyone condoning or defending that no matter what their colour preference.

It is against TOS to post personal information. Contact a moderator if you have any questions or concerns.

thanks

Geez Hundmutter, you are really pushing the boat out now,i probably was not fortunate enough to receive your fine education and fancy wording,i have to admit i struggled to decipher your message which IMHO looked like Yoda helped you compose.
Your overuse of the question mark button is totally unnessessary as i will only answer a question once not three or four times.
Your stalking of my posts is however intrigueing.....are you polishing your newly aquired jedi skills,no need to answer i will help,see how nice i am.
I will say this only once, i   do    not    condone    the    breeding    of    proven    hereditary    health    problems.
Now that is clear,i have something else to say only once,   i   do   not   condone   witch   hunting   or   bullying.
I do know exactly which dogs are in my pedigrees,which is why i know i have a dog related to another dog on another post.
I did mention she is not affected you must have skimmed over that bit,in any case now that i know a distant relative had a health condition it will  help me have an informed decision to make if i ever want to breed from her again,i was as unaware of it as others were until the owner posted so please Abby Normal try to contain yourself it will only become a worry to me if she or her offspring develop it.If she never develops it her dna could also help when pin pointing a gene as non carriers of related carriers are needed too. 
The liver pups on the liver gsd site have not been inbred to produce the colour Abby Normal,glad you can appreciate well built dogs when you see them.