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by Prager on 13 June 2013 - 02:06
Michael Cox I am glad that you got dog which you like and I will also emphasise that I am also glad that you did not get it here. I am selling dogs for few decades now and I have learned the hard way that not all money are good money.
FYI I would like to clarify one detail, there are every day 4 people taking care of the dogs and not 2 as you say. They are me, Debbie , her son and my dear friend Danny and also I used to have on premises groomer which is now on her own but still takes care of my dogs when asked. Also often I have decoys to come here and other workers. So to say that there are 2 people here ,... well let say you are mistaken.
I do not remember your visit, but I guess you were here if you say so. Many people come here often unannounced and so far I aware only of complimented on my dogs and the way they are kept. Even this thread attests to that. This is a breeding and training kennel and not a petting zoo. Thus no,... dogs are not prancing on a golf course style surface, but they are on concrete and gravel in Arizona dust. But that is how it is how it is here. Dogs are exercised and get dusty. However even local animal control said that I have the best run kennel and nicest dogs that they have seen.
Also I am little confused about purpose of your visit here, if you say that you were looking for trained dog . That is since usually I do not have here dogs for sale or have very few or only some pups from my breeding program. Trained dogs for sale are kept in Czech and are then sold to all over the world and if they come into USA they may go through my place where I provide additional training and free handler's course to a buyer or are kept here after someone already purchased them and before I deliver them anywhere in the world. So I have no clue what Michael Cox was doing here, since I do always make abundantly clear that most dogs fro sale are in Europe and since he did not even mention to see any dogs for sale.I guess he was visiting here probably only so that he can spread crud on the internet and maybe do some spying for competition. Anyway anybody is welcomed to and can come here at any reasonable day time and see what is going on here,... see my dogs and my place which I am very proud of. Hundreds of people visited here included Slamdunc who does not like me to put it mildly or in another words, there is no love lost between us,..but even he can not say that my kennel or dogs are in bad shape.
Michael Cox is also getting reputation here in AZ since I have heard that some trainers do not want or are reluctant to work with Mike,... and I can see why.
Again I wish you good luck with your dog.
Prager Hans
FYI I would like to clarify one detail, there are every day 4 people taking care of the dogs and not 2 as you say. They are me, Debbie , her son and my dear friend Danny and also I used to have on premises groomer which is now on her own but still takes care of my dogs when asked. Also often I have decoys to come here and other workers. So to say that there are 2 people here ,... well let say you are mistaken.
I do not remember your visit, but I guess you were here if you say so. Many people come here often unannounced and so far I aware only of complimented on my dogs and the way they are kept. Even this thread attests to that. This is a breeding and training kennel and not a petting zoo. Thus no,... dogs are not prancing on a golf course style surface, but they are on concrete and gravel in Arizona dust. But that is how it is how it is here. Dogs are exercised and get dusty. However even local animal control said that I have the best run kennel and nicest dogs that they have seen.
Also I am little confused about purpose of your visit here, if you say that you were looking for trained dog . That is since usually I do not have here dogs for sale or have very few or only some pups from my breeding program. Trained dogs for sale are kept in Czech and are then sold to all over the world and if they come into USA they may go through my place where I provide additional training and free handler's course to a buyer or are kept here after someone already purchased them and before I deliver them anywhere in the world. So I have no clue what Michael Cox was doing here, since I do always make abundantly clear that most dogs fro sale are in Europe and since he did not even mention to see any dogs for sale.I guess he was visiting here probably only so that he can spread crud on the internet and maybe do some spying for competition. Anyway anybody is welcomed to and can come here at any reasonable day time and see what is going on here,... see my dogs and my place which I am very proud of. Hundreds of people visited here included Slamdunc who does not like me to put it mildly or in another words, there is no love lost between us,..but even he can not say that my kennel or dogs are in bad shape.
Michael Cox is also getting reputation here in AZ since I have heard that some trainers do not want or are reluctant to work with Mike,... and I can see why.
Again I wish you good luck with your dog.
Prager Hans
by MichaelCox on 13 June 2013 - 03:06
Hans,
I'm sorry you seem to be confused as to my post. As I stated if you read the whole thing I have no ax to grind and no wheels to grease. I simply stated what I saw, maybe I caught you on a bad day. However I stick by my original post. It's okay if I didn't get a dog from you and with the following that you have (some blindly) I'm not sure why you would be concerned about my post. We are all entitled to our own opinions and that's all I posted, my OPINION.
As far as me getting a reputation in Phoenix with trainers I think that's just hard feelings/throwing stones on your part. I've only spoken to 3 trainers in all of AZ and have yet to work with any of them. If asking around and talking to different people about trainers, breeders, brokers and the like is offensive so be it! I'm not going to just let anyone who says they are a trainer touch my dog! I'm going to ask questions, the hard ones and like I said if that offends I would suggest that person get thicker skin.
For the life of me I can't/don't understand why people would be offended by a person asking questions and looking for HONEST feedback about an individual or business! I find people that say "Go to this guy, he's the best!" but have never even stepped foot on their property or actually worked with them foolish!
As I said, I simply posted my opinions and you know what they say about those; but in closing Hans you might be a great guy and I wasn't attacking you as a person or attacking your place I just chose to do business elsewhere. If I said something that hurt your feeling's please accept my apologies.
I'm sorry you seem to be confused as to my post. As I stated if you read the whole thing I have no ax to grind and no wheels to grease. I simply stated what I saw, maybe I caught you on a bad day. However I stick by my original post. It's okay if I didn't get a dog from you and with the following that you have (some blindly) I'm not sure why you would be concerned about my post. We are all entitled to our own opinions and that's all I posted, my OPINION.
As far as me getting a reputation in Phoenix with trainers I think that's just hard feelings/throwing stones on your part. I've only spoken to 3 trainers in all of AZ and have yet to work with any of them. If asking around and talking to different people about trainers, breeders, brokers and the like is offensive so be it! I'm not going to just let anyone who says they are a trainer touch my dog! I'm going to ask questions, the hard ones and like I said if that offends I would suggest that person get thicker skin.
For the life of me I can't/don't understand why people would be offended by a person asking questions and looking for HONEST feedback about an individual or business! I find people that say "Go to this guy, he's the best!" but have never even stepped foot on their property or actually worked with them foolish!
As I said, I simply posted my opinions and you know what they say about those; but in closing Hans you might be a great guy and I wasn't attacking you as a person or attacking your place I just chose to do business elsewhere. If I said something that hurt your feeling's please accept my apologies.
by Prager on 13 June 2013 - 18:06
FYI. Yes I have read your post in it's entirety. I am not confused by your post as you say but as I stated in my last post,..."I am confused about the purpose of your visit here,..." that is since you were looking for a trained dog and I do only rarely sell trained dogs from my home and I make that always very clear. Your saying that you have no ax to grind is just that. You saying it and it does not mean much.
Your description of other kennels like Eurospost is also interesting. I know Europort people Joe and Taunia. They are one of the most reputable businesses which sells dogs and have great dogs. As far as K9 Specialist I do not know him as well, but I know enough that he is a good guy and loves dogs and take care of them well and your insinuations about him are insulting and damaging. Eurospeort and K9 Specialist are my competition and thus I should be glad if I see any bad press about them, but the fact is that it makes me angry that someone makes a public evaluation on international forum based on brief visit or one phone call and bunch of assumptions.
Yes you can and need to make an evaluation of place where you are going to buy a dog and you need to go on something I understand that. And your way is not necessarily the worst way to do so. But to make a negative spectacle of it on international forum based on these brief encounters, one or two e mails and assumptions is not appropriate nor fair. Especially if you use derogatory and ironic statements and judgments extruding from these short visits or phone calls.
Prager Hans
Your description of other kennels like Eurospost is also interesting. I know Europort people Joe and Taunia. They are one of the most reputable businesses which sells dogs and have great dogs. As far as K9 Specialist I do not know him as well, but I know enough that he is a good guy and loves dogs and take care of them well and your insinuations about him are insulting and damaging. Eurospeort and K9 Specialist are my competition and thus I should be glad if I see any bad press about them, but the fact is that it makes me angry that someone makes a public evaluation on international forum based on brief visit or one phone call and bunch of assumptions.
Yes you can and need to make an evaluation of place where you are going to buy a dog and you need to go on something I understand that. And your way is not necessarily the worst way to do so. But to make a negative spectacle of it on international forum based on these brief encounters, one or two e mails and assumptions is not appropriate nor fair. Especially if you use derogatory and ironic statements and judgments extruding from these short visits or phone calls.
Prager Hans
by MichaelCox on 13 June 2013 - 18:06
Hans,
As you have proven in your posts time and time again, you only hear/read what you want and leave out the rest. I can only assume it's because you wish to get attention or your feelings were actually hurt. Either way I stand by my post regardless of how you feel about them. I will ask that you drop it so it just dies off.
As far as Eurosport, my post stands, two word replies are unacceptable. I don't see why you care anyway with the one exception being you are trying to cast me as a villain (the enemy of my enemy and all). As far as Peter at K9 Specialists he was a very nice guy and I appreciated his time he simply just didn't have what I was looking for, he did have some very nice sport dogs. Again unless you are just trying to ban together to make me look evil?
I find it amazing that you or any other breeder takes this stuff so personal. Get it through your head that neither I or any one else is under any obligation to buy a dog from you. If the new owner is going to have that dog as part of their life for the next 10-15 years you have absolutely NO SAY in where they get a dog from, it's not a car!
Up to this point I have let it slide that you basically called me a liar; so please for both our sakes leave it be, you will not bully me into submission you will only start a fight you don't want. If you push the subject I will refresh your memory of my visit.
As you have proven in your posts time and time again, you only hear/read what you want and leave out the rest. I can only assume it's because you wish to get attention or your feelings were actually hurt. Either way I stand by my post regardless of how you feel about them. I will ask that you drop it so it just dies off.
As far as Eurosport, my post stands, two word replies are unacceptable. I don't see why you care anyway with the one exception being you are trying to cast me as a villain (the enemy of my enemy and all). As far as Peter at K9 Specialists he was a very nice guy and I appreciated his time he simply just didn't have what I was looking for, he did have some very nice sport dogs. Again unless you are just trying to ban together to make me look evil?
I find it amazing that you or any other breeder takes this stuff so personal. Get it through your head that neither I or any one else is under any obligation to buy a dog from you. If the new owner is going to have that dog as part of their life for the next 10-15 years you have absolutely NO SAY in where they get a dog from, it's not a car!
Up to this point I have let it slide that you basically called me a liar; so please for both our sakes leave it be, you will not bully me into submission you will only start a fight you don't want. If you push the subject I will refresh your memory of my visit.
by Gustav on 13 June 2013 - 18:06
You guys move on...lol, it's not worth it on either side of the coin.
by Prager on 13 June 2013 - 19:06
Gustav You are right.
by Slamdunc on 13 June 2013 - 19:06
FWIW, I get the feeling that Michael Cox is a "tell it like he sees it, kind of guy." He is not going to sugar coat things and shoots straight from the hip. I find his posts refreshingly honest and to the point, something that you do not see everyday. I respect that in a person. I found his thread and story of looking for a PPD very interesting. I applaud the work and research he has done to find himself a suitable dog. I appreciate his dedication and it seems like it has paid off for him. I really don't think it was Michael Cox's intention to bash anyone; he was just relaying his experiences. I'm sure there are many people that are looking for that "perfect" next dog or a "PPD." But lack the means or the time to travel across the country to find one. Michael was able to do that and offered his opinion. This is simply one "Noob's" opinion and experience, albeit a well researched one.
Hans,
Perhaps, Michael visited your kennel at a bad time? Perhaps, he is one of those OCD neat freak people? Maybe, not. Yes, I visited your kennel 3 1/2 years ago on one of the trips I make to Scottsdale each year. It was fine when I was there, the place was clean and the dogs were fine. I'm sure it hasn't changed all that much over the years, although, I really couldn't say. You are correct that "there is no love lost between us." You are a charming guy to have a beer with and have some interesting stories, but not someone that I would do business with either. As I have said before, this has little impact on either of us. There are a plethora of people that you can sell dogs too, and I have plenty of breeders / vendors / importers that I trust for my personal dogs or Department dogs. I simply prefer not being dragged in for an endorsement of a product that I do not use.
Hans,
Perhaps, Michael visited your kennel at a bad time? Perhaps, he is one of those OCD neat freak people? Maybe, not. Yes, I visited your kennel 3 1/2 years ago on one of the trips I make to Scottsdale each year. It was fine when I was there, the place was clean and the dogs were fine. I'm sure it hasn't changed all that much over the years, although, I really couldn't say. You are correct that "there is no love lost between us." You are a charming guy to have a beer with and have some interesting stories, but not someone that I would do business with either. As I have said before, this has little impact on either of us. There are a plethora of people that you can sell dogs too, and I have plenty of breeders / vendors / importers that I trust for my personal dogs or Department dogs. I simply prefer not being dragged in for an endorsement of a product that I do not use.
by Prager on 14 June 2013 - 12:06
Slamdunc as I said before, anybody can come and visit my place at any time. Nothing changed from years ago . Only I am adding state of the art nursery for pups and their mammas and few trees got bigger. As far as your sentiment about doing business with me,.... the perfect reverse is applicable too. I would not do business with you either. Some people just should not do business with each other. That does not mean that some others should not do business with the same.
As far as this thread, I will just clarify here what I am talking about. First let me say that I absolutely respect anybody's way how they select their dogs and where to buy them. There are better or worse way and Michael Cox used better way then most would.
However this is not the issue I am talking about. In my life I have learned and as any good detective book will illustrate is, that first impressions may be right but are not necessarily so and that assumptions are ,...well you know what assume means.
Let me use an example here. I am talking here about Peter K9 specialist who did not let Michael into his kennel. Michael Cox insinuated potentially nefarious reason. However there are many legitimate reasons why breeders do not allow visitors into the kennel. As a matter of fact it is more rule then exception not to let people inside of the kennel. They are introduction of possible infection, visitors sticking they fingers into kennels and getting bitten or laws about equal access for handicapped, someone slipping on wet slippery floor and suing and so on and on and on.
I will, say again that the way Michael Cox went about searching for his dog and seller of such is better then most. I will also say that the buyer needs to feel right before he/she buys the dog and seller needs to feel right before s/he sells one to someone. However from K9 Specialist's example we can see that even honest assumptions could be wrong and if expressed on public forum they may be unfairly damaging and thus not very helpful. That is what I am talking about.
Prager Hans
As far as this thread, I will just clarify here what I am talking about. First let me say that I absolutely respect anybody's way how they select their dogs and where to buy them. There are better or worse way and Michael Cox used better way then most would.
However this is not the issue I am talking about. In my life I have learned and as any good detective book will illustrate is, that first impressions may be right but are not necessarily so and that assumptions are ,...well you know what assume means.
Let me use an example here. I am talking here about Peter K9 specialist who did not let Michael into his kennel. Michael Cox insinuated potentially nefarious reason. However there are many legitimate reasons why breeders do not allow visitors into the kennel. As a matter of fact it is more rule then exception not to let people inside of the kennel. They are introduction of possible infection, visitors sticking they fingers into kennels and getting bitten or laws about equal access for handicapped, someone slipping on wet slippery floor and suing and so on and on and on.
I will, say again that the way Michael Cox went about searching for his dog and seller of such is better then most. I will also say that the buyer needs to feel right before he/she buys the dog and seller needs to feel right before s/he sells one to someone. However from K9 Specialist's example we can see that even honest assumptions could be wrong and if expressed on public forum they may be unfairly damaging and thus not very helpful. That is what I am talking about.
Prager Hans
by Slamdunc on 14 June 2013 - 15:06
↵Hans,
Again, I do not know why I was dragged into this by you or by Kitkat on page 2 of this thread. I find it amusing when you say that you would not do business with me. You have certainly tried and even wanted to sell me and my Police Department dogs. I considered it briefly, did some research and then decided NOT to add you to our vendor list or consider ever getting dogs for myself from you. I suppose you are correct in one sense; You will not be doing business with me, simply because, I'm not buying what you are selling. Here is my response on page 2 and it is pretty much the same now:
I do not sell dogs, therefore, "I do not have a dog in this fight." I work and train my own dogs and my Dept's dogs. I select and test dogs for my Dept and some others. I make recommendations on vendors that I feel are reliable, honest, trustworthy and supply quality dogs capable of performing the job I need. I would like to think my standards are high and price is not a primary consideration. I take this very seriously, I do not want people reading this thread to think that I am endorsing a vendor/broker/breeder that I simply do not. I have my next personal dog selected from an upcoming breeding and am very satisfied with the vendors we have for our Police K-9's.
Can I be left out of this now?
Again, I do not know why I was dragged into this by you or by Kitkat on page 2 of this thread. I find it amusing when you say that you would not do business with me. You have certainly tried and even wanted to sell me and my Police Department dogs. I considered it briefly, did some research and then decided NOT to add you to our vendor list or consider ever getting dogs for myself from you. I suppose you are correct in one sense; You will not be doing business with me, simply because, I'm not buying what you are selling. Here is my response on page 2 and it is pretty much the same now:
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by Slamdunc on 12 December 2012 - 14:03  
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 SlamduncPosts: 4510 Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:46 am |
| Kitkat, Yes, I met Hans and his wife Debbie who were charming and very gracious. I did see the Kennel and the dogs there. The personal dogs Hans had at his house were nice, I didn't see any dogs work. Time changes things and my opinion certainly has changed. Personally, I would not include him on my vendor list now for my PD or for a dog for myself. If other people are happy with him great. I don't wish him any bad will just that I would consider other sources for a dog for sport, pet or Police work. To be clear, I would not endorse Hans nor do business with him. I'm sure Hans knows this and it really makes little difference to either one of us. There are plenty of people for him to sell dogs to and plenty of others that I would gladly do business with. |
I do not sell dogs, therefore, "I do not have a dog in this fight." I work and train my own dogs and my Dept's dogs. I select and test dogs for my Dept and some others. I make recommendations on vendors that I feel are reliable, honest, trustworthy and supply quality dogs capable of performing the job I need. I would like to think my standards are high and price is not a primary consideration. I take this very seriously, I do not want people reading this thread to think that I am endorsing a vendor/broker/breeder that I simply do not. I have my next personal dog selected from an upcoming breeding and am very satisfied with the vendors we have for our Police K-9's.
Can I be left out of this now?
by Gusmanda on 14 June 2013 - 15:06
Can I be left out of this now?
Didn't you insert yourself to begin with? Should be just as easy to exit. Not sure what you have against Hans, you seem to make a statement against him on every opportunity. Just an observation.
Didn't you insert yourself to begin with? Should be just as easy to exit. Not sure what you have against Hans, you seem to make a statement against him on every opportunity. Just an observation.
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