do you believe yr east/czech peds - Page 1

talked to a long term breeder who has imported many dogs about some big name peds - he told me all that  most peds/papers/health certs from the east type lines are good for is wiping yr butt with!!!!

he did not mean he did not like the lines - he has them, i don't think he fully believes his own peds unless he did the mating at his own kennel which he has for several generationsd, the foundations of his line he holds no stock in.

he meant the corruption and falsification of papers is so rampant he does not even bother unless he is getting a dog from his own blood relative.

is this belief justified in general?

Hard to prove/disprove without DNA analysis...but if someone wanted to cheat, I am sure that's possible anywhere.

sure is and sure does but i guess i am asking should more caution than normal be taken from that part of the world?

actually it is a non-question to question cos it is not possible to prove or disprove as you would have little more tools than the word of the breeder anyway no normal person is equipped to delve any deeper than face value/reputation - does not mean you won't get the traits you ask for just means you may not get the genes you think you are getting specifically...oh well.

NO, I don't think it is justified at all. Actually sounds a little quirky for a breeder to even say that.
I simply would not deal with someone that held that belief.
Yeah, back in the day there was talk about the Martins switching males because they would not let others witness the matings blah,blah, blah.
If you don't trust the dog is who it is said to be, Don't buy it.

kat and what is yr threshold of trust or how do YOU verify - trust what the breeder tells you?

as for this particular breeder i think i trust him more since the conversation - he is the same guy that told me about what people did with liquid paper a type-writer and a photocopy machine back in the day and throw in a whole bunch of pets stolen from peoples back yards and sold with a ped the buyer was looking for - i think they called it the "good old days".

So what is this breeder basing his talk on ?  Has he actually done DNA tests and found descrepancies, or is he pulling things out of his ar$e, since the talk he is peddling sounds plausible since that was a "closed" part of the world till not too long back ? 

I believe the East side kept extremely detailed records, down to the minutest point of measuring the size of the chest, the size of the head, the side of the forepaws etc of the individuals that were used (and re-used as necessary) in their breeding programs, and also that of the resultant progeny as they were born, and the detailed records continued to be maintained as the progeny were raised.....enforced via tight governmentally controlled programs.  They brutally culled when the objectives were missed, with no profit motive driving the breeding programs, that essentially supplied "products" to the governmental agencies for a specific purpose (border patrol, prison control etc).

The lesson here is that these dogs were not sold commercially for profit (unlike the "open" parts of the "free world"), for the most part, and thus what is the motivation - by the governmentally controlled breeding programs mind you - for falsifying records ? Falsify the records by themselves, to fool themselves ? 

Bottomline, pardon the language, but the breeder is full of $hit, to use an expression.  He is just using the talking points supplied by the west people, to try and discredit the people from the Eastern bloc, to increase the sales (and purported reputation) of the dogs from the west.....a bit of what I term as malicious sharp-elbowing.  I bet even though he has some "East lines" within his program, the vast majority of what he does - and thus the major source of his income - is purely with non-East lines. 

PS: Cheating can be done anywhere and the easiest place that could be done, would be in the "free world" than the "closed world". JMHO, of course.

aaykay.....what are you basing your info on? Did you happen to live there?

People falsify pedigree in all countries, but there are genuine and dedicated breeders in all countries too, who value the authenticity of their dogs pedigrees for their own breeding progams if nothing else.  Since it is comaratively recently that dogs from the Eastern bloc have been easily available for top money, I doubt there would have been enough to gain to bother falsifying pedigrees before then.

Margaret N-J

In my world, a good working dog is a good working dog, papers or not. I believe that unless you are a breeder, which I am NOT, papers mean very little as far as the abilities of the dog.
Fake papers have been around the dog world for ever, but, again, I dont need papers to know that a good dog is a good dog.