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by Gusmanda on 20 February 2013 - 17:02
IPO is what you make of it... no ifs ands or buts about it. One thing is for certain. i can watch a video of an IPO trial and see which dogs i would like further knowledge of and those i wouldnt walk across the street to inquire about. :)
Vomeisenhous, I've heard the same thing from several breeders, folks that know can differentiate between a excellent dog and a excellently trained dog, so IPO at least provides a platform to compare
Vomeisenhous, I've heard the same thing from several breeders, folks that know can differentiate between a excellent dog and a excellently trained dog, so IPO at least provides a platform to compare
by Slamdunc on 20 February 2013 - 18:02
Well trained tracking dog of any breed I have seen, who hits trail under 90* can determine instantly to 10 feet which direction the person walked. Do not ask me how they know but it is so. I think it is because the heel disturbers the ground different way then toe.
It is called scent gradient theory, that is how a dog determines the direction of the track. It is not because the heel disturbs the ground differently than the toe. This is not unique to dogs. It is proven on concrete and is how hunting dogs pick up the scent of their quarry and start trailing in the correct direction; or how a crab or shark follows an odor to a meal. It is something important to understand and can be seen by an experienced handler at the start of the track or trail, well before the dog is given the command to start. The body language is a major clue for the handler.
It is called scent gradient theory, that is how a dog determines the direction of the track. It is not because the heel disturbs the ground differently than the toe. This is not unique to dogs. It is proven on concrete and is how hunting dogs pick up the scent of their quarry and start trailing in the correct direction; or how a crab or shark follows an odor to a meal. It is something important to understand and can be seen by an experienced handler at the start of the track or trail, well before the dog is given the command to start. The body language is a major clue for the handler.
by vomeisenhaus on 20 February 2013 - 20:02
prager... yes any reasonable dog has nose good enough for a 90min old track. when hours are involved is a different matter. This is why bloodhounds are employed by large depts and correctional facilities as well. ive seen many very good dogs that are cast at a bait site with no track to determine direction to later come out to a road and be going the wrong way. years ago in east orlando fla a man ran from police in thick wooded area. a german shepherd was deployed and lost the track. A guy who purchased a bluetick hound from my hunting partner (who happened to be the chief of police in a town west of orlando) who lived in the area inquired as to what was going on. They were waiting on a bloodhound which was an hour or better away to show up. He told them he had a hound that just might be able to help them out and was allowed to help pursue. the blue dog found him...lol . there was a right up on it in the orlando sentinel newspaper. my ex chief of police buddy has it cut out and in his photo album. he was poud. lol
by Christopher Smith on 21 February 2013 - 06:02
http://www.offa.org/stats.html
Hans that is pure nonsense. Look at the stats for yourself. The Malinois is by far a much healther breed than the GSD.
by OGBS on 21 February 2013 - 08:02
From Slamdunc:
"This is not unique to dogs. It is proven on concrete and is how hunting dogs pick up the scent of their quarry and start trailing in the correct direction; or how a crab or shark follows an odor to a meal."
Jim,
I find this to be true of humans also.
There is this resturant near my house that has some of the best smells emanating from it. (Me picking up the scent)
Every time I drive near the place (this is on concrete) I have to stop in to get some ribs! (Shark following an odor to a meal)
"This is not unique to dogs. It is proven on concrete and is how hunting dogs pick up the scent of their quarry and start trailing in the correct direction; or how a crab or shark follows an odor to a meal."
Jim,
I find this to be true of humans also.
There is this resturant near my house that has some of the best smells emanating from it. (Me picking up the scent)
Every time I drive near the place (this is on concrete) I have to stop in to get some ribs! (Shark following an odor to a meal)
by Slamdunc on 21 February 2013 - 11:02
Steve,
Exactly! If you followed the weakest odor of the scent you would go in the wrong direction and wind up hungry. The scent is strongest at the source and is weaker the further you are away from it. The track odor is strongest in the direction the animal went. In your case where the source of the odor is strongest where the ribs are. The restaurant is an excellent analogy scent gradient theory.
Exactly! If you followed the weakest odor of the scent you would go in the wrong direction and wind up hungry. The scent is strongest at the source and is weaker the further you are away from it. The track odor is strongest in the direction the animal went. In your case where the source of the odor is strongest where the ribs are. The restaurant is an excellent analogy scent gradient theory.
by jade on 22 February 2013 - 22:02
yes
by GSDfan on 23 February 2013 - 01:02
Honestly, If you havent' titled a dog in BOTH sports your opinion of which sport is more difficult is merely speculation.
I have titled two GSD's to BOTH SchH3 and PSA1
I agree with most that SV will never replace Schutzhund with PSA. PSA is barely known outside the US, it has a great deal of growing to do in this country alone before considering how much growth it would need internationally to even be looked at by the SV...not to mention replace a breed suitability test that has been around since the early 1900's. PSA is a great sport and is rapidly gaining strength and respect as a legitamate top level dogsport.
But when comparing the two I think it's really apples and oranges.
I believe it's harder to title a dog to a Schutzhund 1 than PDC, mainly because of Schutzhund's THREE phases...and retrieves.
After that I believe it's easier to achieve a SchH3 than a PSA2 and 3. Those PSA titles demand incredible amounts of control with suited decoys as distraction during obedience. Protection involves multiple decoys, directional bites, call offs and surprise scenarios JUST to name a few...where Schutzhund's protection changes very little from the lowest title. So what happens is the limited number elements in schutzhund protection become incredibly overanalyzed (like grip depth and tone/pitch/speed of barking in the guard) by the judges and competators who's knowledge of working dogs is VERY narrow if schutzhund is ALL that they know.
While Schutzhund in many ways deviates from practicality more and more with each passing year, as people come up with creative ways to TRAIN a behavior to "LOOK" like what is required all in the name of POINTS ( for example, practicing the GUARD in the blind with a dog sitting in a box barking at a ball popper or practicing a BLIND SEARCH by rewarding the dog for LOOKING in the blind by placing a ball in it)
What I like very much about PSA is the functionality...and the easy transition to or parallel of PPD training (in the lower levels of the sport)
I still think Schutzhund is a better standardized and comprehensive exam for the purposes of qualifying breeding stock. If you want to go above and beyond with your own dogs then title one dog in both sports....or get a nosework or tracking title on a PSA titled dog.
JMO
I have titled two GSD's to BOTH SchH3 and PSA1
I agree with most that SV will never replace Schutzhund with PSA. PSA is barely known outside the US, it has a great deal of growing to do in this country alone before considering how much growth it would need internationally to even be looked at by the SV...not to mention replace a breed suitability test that has been around since the early 1900's. PSA is a great sport and is rapidly gaining strength and respect as a legitamate top level dogsport.
But when comparing the two I think it's really apples and oranges.
I believe it's harder to title a dog to a Schutzhund 1 than PDC, mainly because of Schutzhund's THREE phases...and retrieves.
After that I believe it's easier to achieve a SchH3 than a PSA2 and 3. Those PSA titles demand incredible amounts of control with suited decoys as distraction during obedience. Protection involves multiple decoys, directional bites, call offs and surprise scenarios JUST to name a few...where Schutzhund's protection changes very little from the lowest title. So what happens is the limited number elements in schutzhund protection become incredibly overanalyzed (like grip depth and tone/pitch/speed of barking in the guard) by the judges and competators who's knowledge of working dogs is VERY narrow if schutzhund is ALL that they know.
While Schutzhund in many ways deviates from practicality more and more with each passing year, as people come up with creative ways to TRAIN a behavior to "LOOK" like what is required all in the name of POINTS ( for example, practicing the GUARD in the blind with a dog sitting in a box barking at a ball popper or practicing a BLIND SEARCH by rewarding the dog for LOOKING in the blind by placing a ball in it)
What I like very much about PSA is the functionality...and the easy transition to or parallel of PPD training (in the lower levels of the sport)
I still think Schutzhund is a better standardized and comprehensive exam for the purposes of qualifying breeding stock. If you want to go above and beyond with your own dogs then title one dog in both sports....or get a nosework or tracking title on a PSA titled dog.
JMO
by Prager on 23 February 2013 - 20:02
Jim, scent gradient theory utilizes kinetic gradient of scent spreading from the strongest to the weakest. Thus at point A the scent is weaker then at point B, thus direction of person moving is from A to B. This mainly applies to general direction in longer distances- at least few feet but usually tens of feet. There is a hypothesis that pidgins' orientation is based on olfactory navigation using kinetic gradient at least partially and is pretty much clear that vultures are using scent gradient too. The scent gradation in vultures and in dogs is observable by circling and / or zigzagging. However there are other ways for dog to determine direction. Like picking up the direction of the scent from wind direction while the dog is not moving. Thus there is no scent gradient. .
Then there is stereoscopic ability of the dog's nose to determine direction of scent spreading which you may argue utilizes scent gradient, but others will argue that for utilizing scent gradient the dog must be moving.
One of the senses dog picks up on a track is the scent produced by bacteria of a person which was droped from such person and from bacteria of the disturbed ground. Even person can smell disturbed moist ground. This scent usually start immediately but it takes at least 20 minutes to develop to optimum and may last from minutes to weeks. This depends on humidity, temperature, wind, rain and other conditions like the amount of the disturbance, based on pressure and how deep the dirt was kicked off. The heel disturbes the ground quite different way then toe. That it why it makes the bacteria in the dirt work different way under the heel then under the toe. That is a known fact. That enables the dog to determine direction of the progess of the person tracked just about instantly by smelling one or 2 tracks. Thus to say it is not different smell under heel then under the toe of the track and it is scent gradient is somewhat simplistic.
Prager Hans
Then there is stereoscopic ability of the dog's nose to determine direction of scent spreading which you may argue utilizes scent gradient, but others will argue that for utilizing scent gradient the dog must be moving.
One of the senses dog picks up on a track is the scent produced by bacteria of a person which was droped from such person and from bacteria of the disturbed ground. Even person can smell disturbed moist ground. This scent usually start immediately but it takes at least 20 minutes to develop to optimum and may last from minutes to weeks. This depends on humidity, temperature, wind, rain and other conditions like the amount of the disturbance, based on pressure and how deep the dirt was kicked off. The heel disturbes the ground quite different way then toe. That it why it makes the bacteria in the dirt work different way under the heel then under the toe. That is a known fact. That enables the dog to determine direction of the progess of the person tracked just about instantly by smelling one or 2 tracks. Thus to say it is not different smell under heel then under the toe of the track and it is scent gradient is somewhat simplistic.
Prager Hans
by Prager on 23 February 2013 - 20:02
By the way different smell under the heel then under the toe is believed is the reason why it is possible to train dogs track backwards. Which still may be, but I know in past was used by Czechoslovakian border patrol to teach the dogs to track backwards. Tracking backwards from the victim or captured perpetrator is against their inherited instincts but it is possible to be trained and it was useful in different law enforcement scenarios.
Prager Hans
Prager Hans
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