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by ChrisMeverden on 05 November 2013 - 19:11
I don't post here often or at all... but i have a story that i think people should hear. UScA can make all the rules they want about breeding, but who enforces them, and what disciplinary action will be taken for breaking the rules?
I've had the privilege to train and compete with a friend of mine and his dog, that i must say both of them are world class. Rob Kochan and his dog Grem du Triangle Magique. Rob and Grem were the GSDCA-WDA 2011 vice national champions and the 2012 National Champions and was on the World Team in the Ukraine. If any of you have had the pleasure, or for some the not so pleasurable experience of working Grem you will not say one bad thing about that dog. The dog has POWER, grip, strikes, ob drive,no handler aggression, can track it's a$$ off, health, pedigree and from a litter whose littermates are just as successful. While Rob was here in the USA during his run of National Championships and World Team appearances how many people in the US breed to Grem?...
From what Rob told me he only had 1 person used Grem as a stud.
Rob as some of you may know is now stationed back in Belgium serving our country in the Air Force. He beat Ronny at the VVDH National Championship and was second to Ronny at their WUSV Qualifier. Belguim has 2 GSD organizations like us Americans. If you ask the Belgians what dog is currently the best stud dog in their country is, and who everyone is breeding too, MOST will tell you Grem du Triangle Magique. I believe he has had somewhere near, or over 30 breedings in a very small country and i know some Germans that have made the trek to Belgium to use Grem. Some top handlers and trainers over there which i will not list have all used Grem in their breeding program.
We had one of the top stud dogs from Europe right here in our own backyard and we never even knew about it!!! WTF!!!
Most people on this forum said GSDCA-WDA was a showline organization that cares more about side gait than working ability?
Most people on this forum said GSDCA-WDA IPO dogs and handlers are second rate to other GSD's???!
Most people on this forum said GSDCA & GSDCA-WDA dogs do not conform to the international standard of GSD's??!!
All of they above is a true story. Below is my opinion of what i have experienced while in Europe and in America...
In Europe a good dog is a good dog and who handles it or what organization they are affiliated with has no or little influence on the breeders. In America a few handlers influence the breeders.
For the same reasons Grem never got used in America is the same reason no one gives a damn that i just got 8th at the WUSV in my first ever appearance at the Worlds...and yes more Europeans shook my hand than Americans
I've had the privilege to train and compete with a friend of mine and his dog, that i must say both of them are world class. Rob Kochan and his dog Grem du Triangle Magique. Rob and Grem were the GSDCA-WDA 2011 vice national champions and the 2012 National Champions and was on the World Team in the Ukraine. If any of you have had the pleasure, or for some the not so pleasurable experience of working Grem you will not say one bad thing about that dog. The dog has POWER, grip, strikes, ob drive,no handler aggression, can track it's a$$ off, health, pedigree and from a litter whose littermates are just as successful. While Rob was here in the USA during his run of National Championships and World Team appearances how many people in the US breed to Grem?...
From what Rob told me he only had 1 person used Grem as a stud.
Rob as some of you may know is now stationed back in Belgium serving our country in the Air Force. He beat Ronny at the VVDH National Championship and was second to Ronny at their WUSV Qualifier. Belguim has 2 GSD organizations like us Americans. If you ask the Belgians what dog is currently the best stud dog in their country is, and who everyone is breeding too, MOST will tell you Grem du Triangle Magique. I believe he has had somewhere near, or over 30 breedings in a very small country and i know some Germans that have made the trek to Belgium to use Grem. Some top handlers and trainers over there which i will not list have all used Grem in their breeding program.
We had one of the top stud dogs from Europe right here in our own backyard and we never even knew about it!!! WTF!!!
Most people on this forum said GSDCA-WDA was a showline organization that cares more about side gait than working ability?
Most people on this forum said GSDCA-WDA IPO dogs and handlers are second rate to other GSD's???!
Most people on this forum said GSDCA & GSDCA-WDA dogs do not conform to the international standard of GSD's??!!
All of they above is a true story. Below is my opinion of what i have experienced while in Europe and in America...
In Europe a good dog is a good dog and who handles it or what organization they are affiliated with has no or little influence on the breeders. In America a few handlers influence the breeders.
For the same reasons Grem never got used in America is the same reason no one gives a damn that i just got 8th at the WUSV in my first ever appearance at the Worlds...and yes more Europeans shook my hand than Americans
by Kevin Nance on 05 November 2013 - 21:11
Chris,
Sad testimonial and unfortunately spot on.
Very, very best to you and your fine dog.
And, BIG congratulations on your showing at the WUSV. You are certainly NOT "second rate" to any competitor.
Kevin Nance
Sad testimonial and unfortunately spot on.
Very, very best to you and your fine dog.
And, BIG congratulations on your showing at the WUSV. You are certainly NOT "second rate" to any competitor.
Kevin Nance
by Mystere on 05 November 2013 - 21:11
Not surprised to hear about the lack of breeder interest in Grem here. Not sure why, other than perhaps the lack of familiarity with the kennel name...coupled with a lack of bothering the do any research? Or, it could just be that he was not a "flavor of the month," with tends to be the motivation behind a lot of the breeding in this country--herd mentality. A few years ago, a show line dog that lived and trained in New York state went VA at the Canadian Sieger Show AND followed that up with a very respectable performance at the Worlds. No one here bred to him, either. When I asked why, I was told (unbelievably) that it was because the dog had been taken to France. This was from show breeders who send bitches to Germany for breeding several times a year. I am not a geography whiz, but I am pretty sure that France is actually between the US and Germany, kinda on the way. When I pointed that out, the excuses ranged from "looking for more upper arm length" to "pigment". Bottom line-he was not the "flavor of the month," so he got no breedings here.
Curious: does anyone know whether Rob Kochan is the same Rob Kochan who used to live and train in the Pacific Northwest?
Curious: does anyone know whether Rob Kochan is the same Rob Kochan who used to live and train in the Pacific Northwest?
by Mystere on 05 November 2013 - 21:11
Huge CONGRATULATIONS, Chris!!
by ShelleyR on 06 November 2013 - 00:11
I LIKE it.
by Dog1 on 06 November 2013 - 08:11
Couple good points mentioned here. What about USCA making and enforcing the breed rules. They can re open the breed registry, they can re open their litter registration program, They can bring back the breed warden, They can issue SV pink additions where the parents of the litters are both titled and surveyed. They can implement all the standards and offer incentives/requirements to breed using all the tools available to better the breed. Would that make sense? Would that be a good place to start? Will anyone agree with that concept? Let's at least get some simple yes or no responses here.
by Smiley on 06 November 2013 - 08:11
Chris,
The very first post I made on this thread was that USCA needs to emphasize an American BRED breeding program. Did you notice I got zero responses to that statement until your post? It's sad but true. I am a newbie and even I can see that the lack of focus on breeding domestically is a major problem.
Sarah
The very first post I made on this thread was that USCA needs to emphasize an American BRED breeding program. Did you notice I got zero responses to that statement until your post? It's sad but true. I am a newbie and even I can see that the lack of focus on breeding domestically is a major problem.
Sarah
by Staatsmacht on 06 November 2013 - 09:11
@Smiley
Who should work that out?who knows what to do? and on the end who cares what USCA or who ever want??
Do you believe in any Koerbericht(breed survey) writen in that world?
to be clear, to make the breed better we must take for sure 5000 from 5500 dogs out of the breed, but than people start to cry and say that the dog is good be cause it was titled there under this judge and all the puppy owners really like the dogs.it is time to awake and see the truth!!! most of the breeders are happy with that what they breed and only because a few people are may be have a different opinion about the gsd does not change anything.
on the end everyone can breed how he want and can proof that he breed the better dogs.
Who should work that out?who knows what to do? and on the end who cares what USCA or who ever want??
Do you believe in any Koerbericht(breed survey) writen in that world?
to be clear, to make the breed better we must take for sure 5000 from 5500 dogs out of the breed, but than people start to cry and say that the dog is good be cause it was titled there under this judge and all the puppy owners really like the dogs.it is time to awake and see the truth!!! most of the breeders are happy with that what they breed and only because a few people are may be have a different opinion about the gsd does not change anything.
on the end everyone can breed how he want and can proof that he breed the better dogs.
by Blitzen on 06 November 2013 - 09:11
Yes, Dog1 but only if there are rules and By-Laws that are clearly written, enforced, and applied equally to every member, no more favoritism allowed. Officers and Directors must be duly elected and held accountable to the members for only acting in the best interests of the breed and membership. Does the SV need to approve By-Laws? What would be their influence on the USCA?
The intent is admirable; can it be enforced without bringing a different group of people to the table and are there enough knowedgable and caring GSD people out there to get the job done?
Sorry not the simple answer you wanted.
The intent is admirable; can it be enforced without bringing a different group of people to the table and are there enough knowedgable and caring GSD people out there to get the job done?
Sorry not the simple answer you wanted.
by Smiley on 06 November 2013 - 10:11
Staats...I am not sure what the answers to your questions would be. In terms of what can be done, I think maybe having some type of incentive system for breeding American Bred dogs would work. How to do that, I am not sure.
I know with horses when my breed wanted to do something similar...they created a financial pool by setting up a program where studs could be nominated to the stallion program. Then, breeders paid money to enter their foals. The foals that grew up to win in open competition were then rewarded financially with the money going to the BREEDERS only and not the current owner of dog. The studs were also rewarded when their progeny did well. It was a breeders program.
Or, maybe allow American Bred dogs that trial and win a guaranteed spot on the WUSV Qualifier trail.
Another idea, is to set up a program to track the progeny of American sires and dams and award them points for the achievement of their kids. So, you might end up with Gold, Silver, and Bronze award categories for studs and dams that produce a certain number of titled progeny. That way, one could say...this Stud is a Gold stud and so I know he consistently produces dogs that can trial at the highest level successfully.
You could set up a point system with IPO 3 titles getting the most points and so on. For example, requirements would be set up to be a Gold, Silver, or Bronze stud or broodbitch. Maybe, for Gold, the Dog has to have a breed survey and IPO 3 title and sire a minimum of 10 IPO 3 progeny to even be in that class before total progeny points are even counted. They would be the best of the best. A silver and bronze category might just award that level based on progeny points. I only say that as I have seen far, far too many times stallions without significant race records go on to be tremendous studs. Their progeny prove their worth and I think any program should allow for a dog who could not trial for some reason the opportunity to be recognized through the success of their progeny..
But, creating this program would be a way for American breeders to track the results of American breeding animals.
Perhaps, at USCA trials we could set up the current highest scoring American Bred male and female award at each trial. They would get points. Then, at the end of a season or deadline, the top x number of dogs who have the most points would be rewarded somehow....
I have not been in the sport long enough to provide more ideas. All I know is I am going to use American Bred stud dogs for my breeding program and I would love it if USCA (and more importantly USCA members) somehow supported the Domestic Bred German Shepherd.
Sarah
I know with horses when my breed wanted to do something similar...they created a financial pool by setting up a program where studs could be nominated to the stallion program. Then, breeders paid money to enter their foals. The foals that grew up to win in open competition were then rewarded financially with the money going to the BREEDERS only and not the current owner of dog. The studs were also rewarded when their progeny did well. It was a breeders program.
Or, maybe allow American Bred dogs that trial and win a guaranteed spot on the WUSV Qualifier trail.
Another idea, is to set up a program to track the progeny of American sires and dams and award them points for the achievement of their kids. So, you might end up with Gold, Silver, and Bronze award categories for studs and dams that produce a certain number of titled progeny. That way, one could say...this Stud is a Gold stud and so I know he consistently produces dogs that can trial at the highest level successfully.
You could set up a point system with IPO 3 titles getting the most points and so on. For example, requirements would be set up to be a Gold, Silver, or Bronze stud or broodbitch. Maybe, for Gold, the Dog has to have a breed survey and IPO 3 title and sire a minimum of 10 IPO 3 progeny to even be in that class before total progeny points are even counted. They would be the best of the best. A silver and bronze category might just award that level based on progeny points. I only say that as I have seen far, far too many times stallions without significant race records go on to be tremendous studs. Their progeny prove their worth and I think any program should allow for a dog who could not trial for some reason the opportunity to be recognized through the success of their progeny..
But, creating this program would be a way for American breeders to track the results of American breeding animals.
Perhaps, at USCA trials we could set up the current highest scoring American Bred male and female award at each trial. They would get points. Then, at the end of a season or deadline, the top x number of dogs who have the most points would be rewarded somehow....
I have not been in the sport long enough to provide more ideas. All I know is I am going to use American Bred stud dogs for my breeding program and I would love it if USCA (and more importantly USCA members) somehow supported the Domestic Bred German Shepherd.
Sarah
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